Psych and Theo Podcast
Welcome to the "Psych and Theo Podcast". We’re your hosts, Sam and Tim. Join us as we tackle cultural issues by providing insightful discussions from both a theological and psychological perspective.
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 54 - Should Christians Sign Prenuptial Agreements?
The mere mention of "prenuptial agreement" in Christian circles often triggers immediate suspicion. Are we planning for failure before we even begin? Is preparing for divorce fundamentally at odds with a biblical understanding of marriage as permanent and sacred?
This episode tackles these challenging questions head-on, offering a nuanced perspective that might surprise you. Tim unpacks the historical context of marital financial agreements, revealing that even in biblical times, marriage often came with legal protections—particularly for vulnerable parties. The Jewish ketubah, for example, provided financial security for women in case of divorce, not as an escape hatch, but as a safeguard against exploitation.
Moving beyond the simplistic "prenups are unbiblical" stance, we explore legitimate scenarios where prenuptial agreements align with Christian wisdom: protecting inheritances for children from previous marriages, safeguarding family businesses that employ others, addressing significant wealth disparities, or clarifying responsibility for substantial debt. Contrary to popular belief, prenups can actually reinforce marriage by attaching consequences to covenant-breaking behaviors and providing clarity that prevents manipulation during potential divorce proceedings.
Perhaps most surprisingly, we discuss how prenuptial agreements can be structured to expire or erode over time, symbolizing growing trust and intertwining of lives as the years pass. The key lies not in whether you have a prenup, but in examining your motivations and how the agreement is structured.
Whether you're single, engaged, or counseling others about marriage, this thought-provoking discussion will equip you with a framework for approaching prenuptial agreements with wisdom rather than fear or judgment. Subscribe now for more challenging conversations that bring biblical wisdom to complex modern issues.
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All right, all right, everyone. Welcome back to the Psych and VO podcast. Dan and Tim here with a hot topic. Last week, we covered the benefits of premarital counseling.
Speaker 1:We have a good number of listeners who are either single or in relationships and considering marriage, or maybe just those who are married and wanted to just kind of get a refresher, just those who are married and wanted to just kind of get a refresher. All that to say, because today we're going to be talking about prenuptial agreements. Are they biblical? So our expert here, tim, is going to talk to us about how the history of it or how it's showing up or whether or not it's a good thing for marriages. We'll discuss all those things right now, but before we do, as always, we just want to ask you to keep sharing the podcast. We're thankful for you guys who are listening and we also appreciate the topics recommended by you guys. You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in, all right? Well, we're going to talk today about prenuptial agreements, tim, and this is a hot topic and I immediately thought of what are people going to say or what are people expecting at the end of this episode. So this is exciting.
Speaker 2:Well, I will stick to my guns, okay. So if they've got problems with what I'm about to say, I think I can defend myself.
Speaker 1:uh, they might try to cancel.
Speaker 2:You send them all your angry emails, all right, so, okay. So why are we even talking about this subject? Let's maybe answer that first. The big elephant in the room uh, you know, people are getting older. They're burying at much later stages in life.
Speaker 2:In a in a previous episode in season one, we talked about the red pill community and how guys are kind of checking out of relationships and even the idea of marriage. Uh, they're becoming incels or migtails or something like that, and if you don't know what those words mean, go back and listen to that episode. Love that plug. Yeah, so men are, in general, just across our culture, are kind of rejecting modern marriage in many senses. Some of them, some of the leaders of the red pill community, are encouraging kind of common law marriage, which is a legal marriage. It's basically like live in marriage, where you two live in together, whatever you know, and that's a way to skirt around the system that's been built up to favor feminism. This is their argument. Okay, so you have that in the background, and so there's there's this undercurrent in our culture of an aversion to marriage, at least for men, um, and especially if you're a man and you are, uh, somewhat successful in life and you hear all these horror stories about men getting married and then they get taken advantage of. Uh, you know, the wife cheats and then she leaves or whatever, and she takes half the assets or all these things that can happen, you know, um, and so a lot of men are thinking about, well, should I get a prenup or not? And uh, to, to protect me from these things.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about what a prenuptial agreement is and how it differs from a couple, a couple of different things. So a prenuptial agreement, you think about this nuptials means like your vows or the things that you tie the knot at the wedding. That's your nuptials. Prenup means that it's an agreement that you sign. It's a legal document that you sign before you get married, and that legal document is supposed to delineate, uh, what you do with certain, uh, certain assets that you, that one or more parties, has. You know, uh, so a prenuptial agreement can be structured in a lot of different ways and we can get into some of that at the end, but essentially, uh, it's an agreement about what to do with.
Speaker 2:Usually it has to do with money, so what to do with the financial assets, uh, if, in the case of divorce, and you sign this before you get married, okay, uh, so there's a cultural perception of like, well, if you know rich people, rich people get prenups. Or, uh, you know one partner's rich, they get a prenup so that you know they can protect their money from the other person. And uh, prenups have this sort of cultural perception in our culture that it's sort of like a just in case, like you're already kind of preparing for divorce by getting a prenup and so's a. There's a bit of like cultural baggage with a prenup, at least in Christian circles. Oh yeah, and so so Christians, you know, because of the Christian view of marriage, that uh, divorce is sort of a last resort option, uh, and there's limited grounds for divorce.
Speaker 2:Uh, that marriage is a, marriage is meant to be lifelong. Uh, it's meant to be lifelong, it's meant to be lasting. We know we live in a fallen world and that doesn't always happen, but essentially the nature of marriage is that it's permanent, and so why would you even? Here's the thinking is like, if marriage is permanent and it's two Christians getting married and marriage is supposed to be lifelong commitment, why would you even consider getting a prenup, right, you know, if divorce isn't an option and you're going into this marriage, why would you get a prenup? It seems like you're already trying to hedge your bets against this other person. So that's that's sort of the connotation with prenups. When you bring it into Christian circles, secular circles, when you're dealing with people who aren't christians, who don't have the same view of marriage, a prenup is just kind of like, well you know, it might be offensive to someone. Like if a couple gets engaged and one partner's like, hey, I want a prenup, it might be.
Speaker 2:It might kind of bother the other person yeah uh, but they don't quite when it comes to marriage. They don't't think the same way Christians do typically, you know no one gets married. Yeah, no one gets. No one goes to the altar planning to get divorced, at least not very, very few people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, maybe the scam artists but, but, uh, yeah, no one, like no one, goes to the altar planning to get divorced. Okay, but still some people get prenups, okay. So why do we make this in Christian circles? Because I just mentioned, like the biblical view of marriage is it's supposed to be a lifelong commitment. You know some of the when it comes to the issues of divorce.
Speaker 2:You know, christians kind of kind of can disagree on how many grounds there are for divorce and when divorce is biblically appropriate. Uh, there's the um, there's sort of the no grounds view, which is a really uh, rare minority view. Um, uh, which essentially says is the no grounds view doesn't say that like christians, like no one ever gets divorced. It just says that a christian should never initiate a divorce. Even in the case of adultery, the christian doesn't. The christian ought not to initiate divorce. They should always leave the door open for the spouse to be reconciled. So that's kind of like the no grounds view and that's a pretty, that's a pretty small minority of theologians and ethicists that hold that. Yeah, has that changed?
Speaker 1:throughout the years, or has this been pretty consistent?
Speaker 2:uh, it's, you know, I don't know how many people have held that. Um, I would think in the history of christianity it's a rare thing, it's very rare and I, and I would wager to say that it is probably again, somebody is listening and this is like their bread and butter topic, like, forgive me, but I would wager to say it's probably a very contemporary stance or position that some have carved out in the evangelical world. Okay, because there are grounds for divorce, like Christianity. Throughout the history of the history of the church, different denominations have all kind of had different grounds for divorce. Yeah, so the no grounds view is a really rare, you know position. Then there's the one and two grounds views. You know one ground. The one ground view says basically it's adultery, based on Jesus' teachings in Matthew 19.
Speaker 1:And that could be one time or like multiple. So you have an adulterer and you have a. You know a one time thing. Does it clarify, or is there any distinction between those two?
Speaker 2:one-time thing. Does it clarify or is there any distinction between those two? Well, you know the the when it comes to that issue, the christian principle and this if you have a good marriage counselor, they're always going to come back to the principle of hard-heartedness. It's a matter of the heart. So if a person fails, like a partner fails, and they cheat and they're extremely remorseful and they want to be reconciled and they want to heal their marriage, then it's, it's recommended the counselor, the pastor, is usually going to recommend to the other spouse to try to, to remain open to, to reconciliation. Don't, don't cut off that your spouse. That's that's fallen in this respect. However, also, they would also recognize this is a ground for divorce. I mean, it's a very serious ground for divorce. So it's a very serious offense, it's a very serious violation of the marriage covenant.
Speaker 2:So you know, and it does seem to be in the New Testament when Jesus is teaching on this, that really any kind of sexual immorality kind of falls in that bucket. Um, the word he, the word that jesus uses, and you know we I wasn't planning on kind of going to those passages and talking about divorce, but essentially when jesus says, if anyone you know puts away his, his wife, for any reason other than other than pornea and sometimes that's translated as adultery. But the Greek word is pornea and that basically means it's where we get the word pornography it basically means sexual immorality. So Jesus says if anyone puts his wife away for any by put away means divorce puts his wife away for any reason other than sexual immorality, then he commits adultery and he causes his wife to commit adultery. So jesus, now jesus is answering a very specific question to the jews in that context. So again, we could probably do a whole series on like the biblical views of divorce and the different grounds and the and the debates around that.
Speaker 2:But, um, so Jesus is in that specific passage. It's Matthew six and then Matthew 19,. Uh, uh, actually, with Mark six, I'm, I'm. I think it is right now yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, matthew 19 is one of them.
Speaker 1:Uh.
Speaker 2:I think it's Mark, six is the other. But um, uh yeah, essentially that's the ground that Jesus gives is sexual immorality. Well, later on in the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians 7, paul describes a situation in which a believer is abandoned by their unbelieving spouse. And so this is where this is the second ground for divorce. And so some people will hold the two grounds and that's the most common among evangelicals is that there's two grounds for divorce sexual morality and abandonment. Um, and some people will kind of play technical here and say well, were you abandoned by a christian or a non-christian? And if you were abandoned by a non-christian, then, uh, you can remarry, but if, if you were abandoned by a non-Christian, then you can remarry, but if you were abandoned by a Christian, then there's no ground there. But I think that's a really silly argument to make.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the problem that Paul is addressing is that when someone became a Christian, when they converted to Christianity, sometimes their unbelieving spouse would say I'm divorcing you, I want nothing to, because Christianity was not popular in the first century and that's a core value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if their spouse became a Christian, they'd be like I'm done with you, I'm divorcing you. And there's actually modern examples of that, where people become a Christian and their spouse says I don't want anything to do with this, you're crazy and it's not as common, but it does happen. So in those, in those cases, the person is free to remarry the person who has been abandoned by the unbeliever. Uh, when it comes to, like, the situation where maybe a, a, a person who professes to be a Christian I'll just put it that way and they walk out and they abandoned their spouse and they're just gone you know there's some debates about that, but my, my personal view on that one and I, if I recall, I had, I remember, reading a bunch of books. We had to read a bunch of books about this in seminary and Tim LaHaye believe it or not, the guy who wrote the left behind books yeah, he actually. Who wrote the left behind books? Yeah, he actually, he actually uh wrote some things on this and I like his take on this. That, um, he, he said, you know, in this situation where, like a, a, a christian, someone who claims to be a christian, they walk out and they just abandon their spouse.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, the church, the local church, is supposed to be the mediating institution in that scenario and that could be okay, that could be not just walking out. But let's say the spouse is abusive and goes to jail or they commit a serious crime like murder or rape or something like that that lands them in jail for the rest of their life. Okay, those would be de facto abandonment. That's my term, not his, I don't think he uses that term. But those are all de facto abandonment. That's not my term, not his, I don't think he uses that term. But those are all forms of of abandonment in his view.
Speaker 2:And the, the local church will get involved in, like the pastor and the deacons, the elders should get involved on behalf of the spouse that's been, that's been hurt, to confront the one that is sinning Right, and if that person remains unrepentant and they're they, they're just like gone, they, they don't want nothing to do with saving the marriage, they're living in sin, whatever. At that point church discipline kicks in. And, to put it in Paul's language, the person he says when a like a husband does that, when a husband doesn't provide for his family, he's worse than an unbeliever. That's what Paul says in the New Testament so if a man refuses to provide for his family, he is worse, he's acting worse than an unbeliever. And so now I'm kind of walking you through Tim LaHaye's position and I think that's a pretty good one is that, at the point of church discipline, when the church community recognizes this person is sinning, uh, and they're, they're repentant, and we, we know we are uh, in the spirit of first Corinthians, turning this person over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh.
Speaker 2:They are becoming like an unbeliever to us at that point, uh, the abandoned spouse, let's say is, has grounds for divorce. You know, at that point, like they've not, they've been willing to reconcile, they've, they've held out hope and it's taken the pastors and the elders and the church even to try to bring this other person back, and they're just hardhearted and refuse to do it. And so that's from a pastoral, like practical standpoint. How do you deal with situations like that? And, and LaHaye's view and this is my view is that that's sort of a, a, a impracticality, that is abandonment, sure, and so that person has grounds for divorce. At that point, okay, so I'm getting way into divorce, way off the reservation with prenups. Uh, there's some other views with divorce. You know there's a guy, a scholar in britain, his name is david, in stone brewer. He takes a foregrounds view of divorce. Yeah, four grounds, and that it gets a little bit more technical. Um, so we don't have to get intos.
Speaker 2:And that it gets a little bit more technical, um, so we don't have to get into that one. I think it's a really interesting argument. I'm sympathetic to it, um, because it also accounts for things like abuse and, um, other such things that would render the marriage kind of unworkable at that point. Sometimes, with the two grounds view some of the hardliners, they could get themselves stuck in moral absurdities, and one of those would be something like just to entertain this with me, as a philosopher, we think of these morbid situations. Okay, like, imagine a husband who is sexually faithful to his wife, so he hasn't committed any sexual sin whatsoever, and he has an abandoner, he takes care of her and all that stuff, but he's extremely abusive to the kids. In fact, he's so abusive to the kids, in fact he's so abusive that he actually, uh, kills one of them. Okay, so he actually kills one of their children, but he's sexually faithful and he financially provides for his wife.
Speaker 2:Are there grounds for divorce here? You know, because now this husband's going to go away for the rest of his life. Uh, you know, see what I mean. Like, yeah, or let's even take the kids out of it. You know, he's, he's providing financially for his wife and he's not, he's not committing any sexual sins, but he's extremely abusive and and or is threatening to harm her very physically. These are all practical situations that you have to work through, where someone who just takes that that hard line to grounds view it's either abandonment or adultery, they kind of get themselves stuck in situations like that, yeah yeah, where they kind of they kind of get stuck in the tech and like a technical quandary, whereas I think, like Tim LaHaye's view kind of allows to, allows us to see like okay, like there are practical ways of abandonment here.
Speaker 2:That we need to consider and plus like and in the first century it was very taboo for a Christian to initiate divorce with their spouse. So Paul even says hey, if the unbeliever is content to stay with you, don't divorce them. Yeah, cause by your presence you are being this sanctifying presence in their life. Okay, so it was. It was not a thing. Let's say it's not a thing for Christians in the first century to initiate divorce and to divorce their spouses. So that's just a general principle is that Christians should not seek divorce. You know from their spouse.
Speaker 2:It's like a last resort. You know. Let's say Again there's all kinds of situations, you know that could get into it. It's a complex topic, but okay, so okay, let's get back to pre-naps. I'm sorry, um, yeah, yeah, so, um, how do we?
Speaker 2:get on that, um, yeah, so in the christian view of marriage, marriage is a covenant. Okay, this is this is one of the main arguments to say is well, christian, christian marriage is a covenant. You look in the bible, marriage is a covenant. You look in the Bible, marriage is a covenant, and it's a covenant before God. And it's a covenant that's meant to model Christ and his church.
Speaker 2:Okay, so if marriage is a covenant, why? And if that's permanent, there's and this is the this is how people kind of slip this in, slip this anti prenup view in is that they, covenants don't have, have conditions, they're permanent commitments. Covenants don't have conditions, they're permanent commitments. It's an unconditional covenant. Okay, that's sort of like, if Christ's, if Christian marriage is meant to model the view or model Christ in his church, well, christ has this unconditional covenant with his bride, okay, so Christian marriage has this unconditional commitment to each other, okay, so why would you attach a prenup to that? Okay, the problem, the problem with that view, is that, in practicality, even in the first century among christians, there were pre-marital contracts that were signed that was going to be one of my questions.
Speaker 1:Was there anything done before that? Okay?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. So. So you have this in the jew and jewish backgrounds, but you also have this in, uh, roman, greco-roman settings as well. Um, marriages oftentimes came with legal contracts and legal obligations. In the jewish world it's called the ketubah, and it is a contract that the bride and the or sorry, the groom and the groom's father kind of get together and agree on what the groom will pay if they get divorced.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and it's meant to protect the woman in that situation. So if you think about this from a from a like an ancient antiquity standpoint, women were very dependent on their husbands. Okay. So if a woman were to get divorced in that kind of setting and the first century I mean her her odds at life are really low. So they I mean they were really dependent on their, on their husband. So this was meant to protect women in marriages, so that that husband would not just simply put his wife away. There would be some serious financial consequences with that. That was a common practice then.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, jews still practice it to this day. Yeah yeah, and there were Jewish Christians in the first century church and there's no indication that they discontinued that practice. Now, marriage it's not until you get into the later centuries, like the Middle Ages, where marriage starts to become sacramentalized, let's say where it becomes viewed as a sacrament of the church and the church begins to take a more primary role in governing marriages. So before that it's a legal, cultural thing. That is in the ancient world. And so with that there's legal and financial obligations. Even in the Old Testament, husbands had financial obligations to care for their wives and these stipulations were born out in Deuteronomy and so, and if a husband didn't fulfill those things, then there were serious consequences. Again, a lot of the divorce laws and marriage laws in the Old Testament were meant to protect women. So it was a lot of like if a man puts his wife away, or he, or you know he needs these reasons to put his wife away. This is why the Jews come to Jesus and they say, rabbi, can a man put his wife away for any reason? Because this was a debate among two rabbinic schools about how to how to interpret a certain passage in Deuteronomy of whether for any reason meant adultery like sexual things, or any reason meant just anything at all. So there was a real liberal school in the first century that said a man can put his wife away for anything, he can divorce her for any reason. And then there was a real conservative school that said no, he can only divorce her for sexual reason. And then there was a real conservative school that said no, he can only divorce her for sexual problems. So when Jesus teaches on this in Matthew 19, he is addressing a very specific Jewish question from the law. Now he goes, he adds on to, he gives the ideal. He says from the beginning he says Moses granted you guys, uh, rits of divorce that you could. You could actually divorce your wife because of your hard heartedness. You know sick, but from the beginning this wasn't so, that when a man and woman come together they're one flesh and what God has joined together let no man put asunder. But then he does add this, he does acknowledge the exception of sexual immorality. And then, and then paul acknowledges like if you're abandoned by your spouse, again that person leaves. You're not leaving, the other person is leaving at that point like it's not, you're not the responsible party of the failed marriage. Okay, so again, I'm getting what. We haven't got, the prenups yet, but yeah, so so the the objection to prenups is like you get all this in the context, why? Why get a prenup when, when christian marriage is permanent? Well, just recognize that.
Speaker 2:Even in the first, even in the ancient world, first century, there are legal contracts associated with marriage, financial obligations associated with marriage. In the event of divorce, this happens, the husband pays this. There were dowries involved in marriages where, uh, you know, either one way or the other, either um, the dowry is a gift that comes with the bride to the groom, um, or the groom pays the family for a dowry for the bride and in, in either case, if the marriage, if a divorce happens in the marriage, fails, that dowry comes into play. Like, uh, the dowry needs to be returned. That was a form of collateral, form of collateral for the marriage.
Speaker 2:Okay, so these are all financial stipulations that are put to to reinforce the marriage. And this is where I'm going with it with with prenuptial agreements and how a christian could look at prenuptial agreements. Is that these kind of things in the in the ancient world were meant to reinforce the marriage, not to give an escape hatch right but to reinforce the marriage so um now that's, that's a cultural thing that people did, which makes a lot of sense, like even within that culture and even in our culture.
Speaker 1:But I'm wondering that christians who are listening their argument may be that that is descriptive but not necessarily prescriptive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's a perfectly good objection. Yeah, because you know, we're not in the Old Testament and, of course, christians differ from Judaism on a lot of different things, and Jesus even corrected the Jews on a lot of these things. So we don't take our orders, let's say, from Judaism when it comes to marriage and divorce laws Okay. Judaism when it comes to marriage and divorce laws okay, um, but, uh, but there are. The reason I bring that those cultural things up is because christians oftentimes have this sort of snapshot, idyllic view of what christian marriage was, but we look at it through a 21st century lens and are often not aware of the historical development around the views of christian marriage. Yeah, it's not that christians believed in divorce in the first century. They didn't, uh, but there were, there were all these. They recognized that divorce was a possibility, okay, and there, and even the greco-roman world obviously recognize this, the Jewish world recognizes that that divorce just sometimes happens, okay and uh. So there were financial stipulations, there were these financial, uh, fallouts that that were designed to happen, um, not to give someone an escape, but to protect the marriage, to reinforce it and to protect the vulnerable party in marriage, and so I think that's what we kind of need to walk into with this prenup situation.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times, another objection that Christians will raise is that this, a prenuptial agreement, undermines trust and commitment between spouses by promoting self-interest or self-preservation before you even get married. So one spouse is like I want to protect myself and preserve all my assets, uh, when we're going into this marriage and that may be the case, okay, um. So in my, you know, thinking on this, and I went out and kind of I kind of poked around the internet to see like what some other kind of prominent christian influencers or whatever were thinking about this. Lo and behold, I didn't know, know, dave Ramsey had a view on this, but he does, and his view is actually really similar to my own. So I was kind of pleased by that.
Speaker 2:You know I don't always see eye to eye with Dave Ramsey on some things, but on this one I thought it was like, okay, yeah, this is pretty good. So you know, here's some reasons not to get a prenup. So this objection about self-interest and self-preservation is a legitimate objection, because reasons not to get a prenup would be like just fear, fear of getting taken advantage of. I'm afraid I'm going to get taken advantage of. Well then, do you really know the person you're marrying? Right?
Speaker 2:that's a really prophecy right there, yeah yeah, yeah, it's like you know, obviously we, we we don't fully know the person we're marrying. We grow into that as a marriage, as a marriage couple. But just having walking into a marriage with that fear I'm going to get taken advantage of, that's paranoia.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's not a good reason to get a, to get a prenup, because you're not really ready to get married probably at that point. Um, another, another reason not, uh, that doesn't justify a prenup would be negative experiences with money or lack of financial security. Uh, so, uh, just like having just really poor experiences, you know, like again it's more fear, um, residual hurt or pain and anger from a previous marriage, so like in another marriage, uh, you're the, the divorced spouse, really hurt, hurt them financially in the courts and the divorce process and just took a lot of stuff from them, and so now they really want to protect themselves. So the the desire for a prenup in that sense comes from a place of stuff from them and so now they really want to protect themselves. So the desire for a prenup in that sense comes from a place of hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a desire for control. There's some people and I think this probably falls on men more of like they're just control freaks and so they want to control their money. They don't want to give any control or merge their assets or anything like that. That's a really bad reason to get a prenup. Because, again, that's these are, if you kind of picking up, these are all reasons that need to get worked out in premarital counseling.
Speaker 1:So last episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And then just just selfishness in general, like, yeah, like if someone's just being selfish and like my assets are mine, your assets are yours, we're going to keep them separate. Yeah, like again, that's just a big issue, that that's a big red flag. You need to work through that.
Speaker 1:And primarily the whole thing about prenups is is specifically financial right or are there yeah?
Speaker 2:Well, things that are, things are financially related. Okay, so it could be. It can involve bank accounts, it could involve inheritance, there's trust fund businesses, uh, anything like that. Yeah, I you know, theoretically, I guess you could structure a prenup around a lot of different things that I don't really know. I mean, I'm sure there's been some more.
Speaker 1:So what's enforceable?
Speaker 2:I think I heard one one word about that yeah, and, and and prenups, um, you know I'm not a lawyer so I'm not giving legal advice here, but, uh, prenups, there are certain stipulations that a court will look at when a prenup is signed, or certain conditions under which a prenup needs to be signed. Um, um, and if those conditions aren't met, it can invalidate the prenup. Uh, so things like a prenup can't be signed under duress, like you can't, one partner can't bring it to the the wedding day and say sign this before we get married, like that. That would be an example of signing it under duress, um, that would invalidate the prenup. Um, that would invalidate the prenup, a verbal prenup, so something that's not written is invalid in the courts. I don't know if this is the case or not, if it's just a recommendation, but I believe each person should or needs to have a lawyer present for a prenup, and there's one other that I'm forgetting at this point. So there's conditions under which a prenup, and there's one other that I'm forgetting, um, at this point. But uh, yeah, there, so there's conditions under which a prenup could be invalidated. Those conditions aren't met, um, so a court could look at a prenup and say like, did, did a? Oh, did the wife sign this under duress, oh yeah, oh, you signed it three hours before I didn't like he made you something. Okay, that's not valid. Yeah, but it apparently happens. I mean, lawyers have crazy stories, you know. Oh yeah, yeah, so. So there's there's issues like that.
Speaker 2:So reasons not to get a prenup, as we mentioned, these are all things that you need to take care of. A premarital counseling. Okay, let me give you some reasons to consider a prenup Now. I'll start with some philosophical, biblical reasons and then I want to get into some practical reasons that I picked up from Dave Ramsey and I was kind of thinking about these myself. It's your power of the focus, yeah, so, okay, so here are some modern arguments for a prenup.
Speaker 2:Okay, number one the Bible does not give guidance on prenuptial agreements. Okay, and I think that is the biggest argument against the opposition is that the Bible is silent on this issue. It doesn't, it doesn't say anything about it whatsoever. Yeah, so there's no biblical prohibition against prenups. So this, this requires wisdom and humility and all the other virtues that we need as Christians. This requires that to approach this topic. So all of the arguments against prenuptial agreements that we hear today are based on historical context and cultural connotations, about which we mentioned at the beginning of the episode. All the objections are typically rooted in that they're not rooted in a clear, strong biblical argument, because it really isn't're not rooted in a clear, strong biblical argument, because it really isn't a biblical argument like a clear one. There's inferential arguments, there's like what we would call a theological argument that you could draw from scripture, but again, it's like you're inferring things.
Speaker 2:Like I said, if marriage is permanent and divorce isn't an option, why would you get a prenup? That's an inference, okay, so people would make that kind of an argument. Here's number two. So prenuptial agreements can protect a vulnerable partner. So there is a practical side to prenups and they can protect a vulnerable partner. They don't just have to protect the person who has wealth. Okay, prenuptial agreements can be structured in a way that actually protect a vulnerable person. Um, that's that's.
Speaker 2:I think that's what people don't always understand about prenuptial agreements is that they think it's always one-sided and it that's really not the case. You can structure them in a lot of different ways, right? So if you, if you flip it and say we're getting a prenuptial agreement, one to to protect these assets, but also to, to to ensure, to, like, uh, ensure that this other person, the person with less wealth, uh, doesn't doesn't get um, um, taken to task in the courts, because if one person has enormous wealth and the other one doesn't, they can hire better lawyers and and do all kinds of stuff in family courts. Okay, so prenuptial agreements can be structured in a way that actually protect a vulnerable person I'm thinking of. Like you can set conditions in prenups where, uh, let's say, one person has extreme wealth and the other person doesn't and they're coming into a marriage together. And let's say it person has extreme wealth and the other person doesn't and they're coming into a marriage together and let's say it's the guy that has the wealth, okay, well, he, he's earned this wealth before the marriage. He wants to protect it. Okay, and some States will honor that. Like, you brought this wealth in before the marriage, it's yours. Some States are like Nope, 50, 50.
Speaker 2:If you get so, the husband wants, you know, understandably, you know wants to protect those assets that he is, you know, worked for and earned. Uh, but you know he could, he could set up the prenup. The two of them could set it up to where, uh, okay, in the event of divorce, it, the, it matters what they can, who the responsible party is in divorce. So if the, if the husband is the one that's like I'm done with this marriage, I'm out of here well then the prenup can be structured to where he forfeits some of his assets to her if he's leaving the marriage. So that's a lot like a ketubah jewish ketubah or it could be structured to where, um, the wife is entitled to some assets, but if she leaves or she commits adultery and she's the one that is responsible for the destruction of the marriage, she forfeits those assets. She forfeits claim to those assets.
Speaker 2:Let's say so. A prenuptial agreement can be structured in a lot of different ways. So it's not just this like one person's rich and they want to protect their stuff. That's the, that's the connotation, but that's not accurate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the ones I had heard was if, um, that they both, whatever they accumulated on their own, that stays with them, and then, whatever they accumulated together, they split that in half. He says that that's one of the most common ones that he has a structure for his clients. Yeah, yeah, and common ones that he has instruction for his clients.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure it gets a little technical and complicated the longer the marriage goes on. So, but yeah, and we'll get into some of that in a second. So, prenuptial agreements number three they can protect against fraud, abuse and manipulation and divorce courts or family courts. So if you have a prenuptial agreement, like you mentioned, that situation of two couples come together, a couple of two couples, a couple comes together and they have assets and they're like, okay, what we bring in before the marriage is is ours separately, but what we earn together is ours together.
Speaker 2:Um, a prenuptial agreement can save a lot of time in family court to say, okay, we, we agreed on this from the beginning. Yeah, um, it can protect against liars. Basically, you know, people can, like, you might look, you might look at someone on the wet on the on your wedding day and be like, wow, this person's an angel, they're perfect, they're not going to be an angel in family court. Yeah, and I, I, I know of a lot of situations where a couple that I, I knew or I I at least knew tendentially through other people um, seemed like a healthy couple and then all of a sudden, like you know, sometime later they're getting divorced and one person is just being absolutely horrible, lying, manipulating, doing all kinds of horrible, nasty, nasty stuff in the family courts.
Speaker 2:Well, a prenuptial agreement, if you have assets, can protect against that stuff. It's a bulwark against it, uh. So again, it's just like an insurance policy. Um, pretty much. And number four you know, prenuptial agreements can actually, as I said before, they can reinforce the marriage by attaching financial consequences to a deserting or unfaithful or abusive spouse. So a prenuptial agreement can actually reinforce the marriage, not just provide this escape hatch parachute, you know, for the person who wants to get out of the marriage that.
Speaker 2:That's true. So consider a few examples. Well, let me give you this first. Dave Ramsey gives four reasons why someone should get a prenup, or four situations. Let's say One is this that if someone, if one or both, are bringing into a marriage inheritance or trust funds for children of a previous marriage, so if you have, if you have assets that are for your children, you want to protect those because again, you could get it.
Speaker 2:Dave Ramsey says prenups keep the weird away. So if someone finds out that you have a lot of money, like there's some weirdos that come around and they they want to be friends with you and then they have these ideas for business and all this other, all this other stuff, but that you know, um, there's this stereotype in our culture which we've all kind of at one point thought of, and that's or or seen maybe in real life, where a woman, a widow, has all the assets of her, of her husband, that has died and she's well off, she's taken care of, and then she gets married again and the guy she remarries is horrible and is trying to take her money from her. Yeah, so a prenup can actually protect that, you know. It can protect the assets that she would pass on to her children yeah, that's good yeah uh, a prenuptial agreement can.
Speaker 2:In the case of significant debt, someone bringing debt into the marriage a prenuptial agreement can protect against that. To say, if, if the marriage fails, uh, the one who didn't bring that debt in is not responsible for that debt, the debt goes with the other person that brought the debt into marriage. And if you think about, in our generation, there's people that are bringing six figures of debt, of college debt, into a marriage. So a prenuptial agreement can actually be a good thing to to say, look, we're, we're in this together, we're married, um, and, and I love you, I'm going to help you pay off this debt while we're married, for as long as we're married, you know. But if our marriage fails, I'm not taking half this debt, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:A third case would be a business.
Speaker 2:If one partner owns a business and they're coming into the marriage, this actually involves more people than just a marriage. So if one partner owns a business, he has employees in that business, and if there's not a prenuptial agreement in place when, if a divorce happens, the divorce spouse can actually take control, partial ownership, of that business, and then, and then you could have a couple that's going through divorce, both having partial control of this business and it could actually destroy the business. And so then, and then you have all these people that are losing their jobs because of one couple that's getting divorced. So a prenuptial agreement could actually say, okay, this guy owns this business, or this gal owns her business, she's bringing this into the marriage. That is off limits in a divorce case.
Speaker 2:And then the fourth example would be extreme assets. Dave Ramsey puts us at like one or $2 million If, if one person's bringing that amount of money into the marriage, or or I should say like a a one to $2 million swing or differential you know, then a prenuptial agreement is probably wise in that sense.
Speaker 2:But but a prenuptial agreement is probably wise in that sense, but a prenuptial agreement doesn't have to be permanent. And this is the final piece is that they can be structured to where they erode over time and they actually expire. And this is what Ramsey recommends, and this is what I was kind of thinking about independently is that you can structure prenups to where you know if, let's say, a couple gets married and then two years later they get divorced, okay, and that in that situation, if there's a prenup in place, yeah, of course the person who brought all the assets into the marriage should keep those, assuming he's not at fault, or assuming you know she's not at fault, you know, this is why it's meant to protect against manipulation and abandonment and things like that. Okay, um, but let's say they're married for 20 years. You know a prenuptial agreement like if you've been married for someone for 20 years, you've earned a lot of things together, um, you've done life together, and so at that, over time, the prenup should should probably expire or erode. Where where, over time, five should probably expire or erode. Where, over time 5, 10, 15 years it becomes less and less force, or the other spouse gets more and more of a claim to the assets and eventually the prenup just expires and all their assets are just joined together at that point. So those are the situations where a prenuptial agreement would be wise and and and would actually, uh, reinforce the marriage and take it. Takes away the temptation. That's another thing that people don't like.
Speaker 2:People often underestimate, or maybe they overestimate, their own virtue in marriages, you know where, like they wouldn't be tempted to take advantage of their spouse in family court To take advantage of the assets that their spouse has. Or maybe they overestimate the virtue of their spouse, although they wouldn't take advantage of me, we would just be fair, everything would just be fair. And toward, if we went to court Like no, I don't know, no-transcript, to take the weird out of the situation and just say this is okay, this is I'm, I'm be the, the person with the wealth, I'm bringing these assets into the marriage. Um, for a time they're protected, uh, but but as we do life together and over time, as our marriage progresses into the decades, the prenup goes away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that. That would. That would signal that I love my, I love my spouse and I'm committed to my spouse more than this money is that I'm not hanging onto this forever. It's just, you know, in those early years of marriage you know to make sure that our marriage is going to last like these, this, these conditions are in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, those would make a lot of sense. Make a lot of sense. Um, no, it's good, tim, I appreciate that. Um, I'm trying to think of any any questions that that would have up, and I think you covered everything, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let me. I'll give you some concluding thoughts. And you know, as I said, the Bible is silent on prenuptial agreements. So the Bible is very loud about marriage and divorce, but silent about some of the cultural things around marriage and divorce, and prenups is one of those things. The most important factor to consider with a prenup is why does one or both parties want it? And this is where a marriage counselor or a pastor should get involved. Why do you want it? No one should be guilted if they bring up the issue of prenup. You shouldn't just immediately guilt them and be like oh, why would you want a prenup? You're Christians. Well, if someone does that, have them. Listen to this episode, okay, and then, uh, also, you know the one another important factor is the stipulations around a prenuptial agreement, how that is structured. Is it structured to reinforce the marital bonds or is it designed as an escape hatch for one person?
Speaker 1:I think that's an important factor there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, and I would say, if a prenup is designed to reinforce the marriage and to encourage the longevity of the marriage, then it's a.
Speaker 1:it's a, it could be a legitimate, perfectly legitimate thing to do would be discussed also in premarital counseling, as this becomes more, as people become more open to this idea, because it is something that, uh, people are starting to to address. But I'm glad because you did mention some very key points about, um, not just the bible, silence on it, but also wisdom and potentially using it and again, operating not from a sense of fear but a sense of reinforcing the, the belief and strength of, of the marriage. Um. So, not great points, tim, three points. So I was, I was just. So. Are you saying people get a prenup or are you saying I forgot to?
Speaker 2:tell you a story. I meant to. I meant to leave this whole thing out with the story, so I'll close with the story. Yeah, so many years ago 2014, I believe it was uh, donald Trump, donald J Trump came to Liberty university. Okay, for the first time. Do you remember this? I remember this.
Speaker 2:So I was a student. I was in seminary at the time. I actually made it in 2012. I can't remember it was between 2012 and 2014 is when this happened. And so he comes to. He comes to Liberty university and it's a big fanfare because, again, he's not run for president yet, he's just Donald J Trump. Uh, he's just the apprentice guy, big hotel billionaire.
Speaker 2:At this point he was, he was sounding off about obama pretty regularly online, um, but he's just like oh, it's donald trump, he's the he's. This is larger than life character, you know. So he's brought in as a guest and some, some people were just like prudish about it, like why is this man coming to liberty? It's like we have all kinds of guests at liberty, like, get over yourselves, okay. So, but he comes and he, he, he's given this whole speech and it's it's as trump as you can imagine, like younger trump, like 11, that's 11 years ago. So, um, so uh. But he ends his speech by saying this he's like uh, I get every day, every day where I go, I give two pieces of advice.
Speaker 2:Every speech, two pieces of advice. He's like number one get even.
Speaker 1:He's like everyone get even.
Speaker 2:And like you could hear like just as like, Ooh, like in the crowd this is the blind center, 10,000 students and everyone's like oh, we don't know how to think about this. And he's like. He's like you guys are christians, though you don't want to get even, do you, you know? So he kind of realized like no one was laughing or cheering for that, so he kind of backpedaled, I think yeah that one, um, and then the second thing he said was get it.
Speaker 2:Or maybe he said prenup first, I forget, I forget. But then the second thing he said was get it. Or maybe he said prenup first, I forget. But then the second thing was get a prenup. You know, get a prenup. You know, and this is you think about Trump as a billionaire who's been married now three, I think three times two or three times Three, and, of course, like he's going to tell all of his rich friends get up, get a prenup. This is just totally. He lives on a totally different cultural planet than we do. Right, right, okay. So that was really scandalous when he said he told all the liberty students, get a prenup and get even. If someone screws you over, you get even against everything.
Speaker 2:It created a whole firestorm. I mean I I don't want to go into the details, but it was a whole firestorm. It was in the news and everything like donald trump tells liberty students to get even oh my god, that was good good memory good callback.
Speaker 1:It's a good way to to end the uh the show today. But yeah, great points, tim. Uh guys consider uh yeah great points, tim.
Speaker 2:Uh guys, consider, uh, just listen to the episode and make me after this yeah, yeah, I guess the moral, the moral of this episode is that prenups are not, uh, anti-biblical, they're not unbiblical, they're just a tool that requires prudence and wisdom and humility to and a third party you know that loves both, both couple, you know both members of that couple to walk through together and to think about when this might be appropriate to do. Yeah, but in some cases it can be appropriate.
Speaker 2:A couple with no like a college, a broke college couple coming out of undergrad they don't need a prenup, okay yeah, yeah um, you know a couple, but a couple with significant wealth disparity, where maybe one person has a million or two in assets and the other person brings comes into the marriage with 20 000 in college debt, like that's their net worth. Uh, in that kind of situation, a prenup might be appropriate, just just for the time for a one that expires over time, yeah, uh, and then another one and I think this is a really, really one where it really should be considered and that's a couple with assets from previous marriages and family ties, with children, with trust funds and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those kinds of situations a prenup is is definitely wise. Those kind of situations a prenup is is definitely wise, um, not because the couple doesn't love each other, but that they recognize, okay, we both have assets that belong to our children, not us, uh and so we need to protect those, um, and just kind of take, take those out of the equation of our marriage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, it's good stuff, tim, good stuff. Yeah, no, it's good stuff, tim, good stuff. Cool, all right. Well, hopefully you enjoyed the episode. We will see you guys next time.
