Ep. 52 - Holy Discomfort: Why We Shouldn't Banish All Shame

What happens when our culture rejects the very concept of shame while simultaneously wielding it as a weapon against those who hold different views? In this thought-provoking conclusion to our three-part series on guilt and shame, we explore the profound disconnect between modern attitudes toward moral emotions and the biblical understanding that offers redemptive clarity.

The conversation opens with a crucial question: what dangers arise when someone loses the ability to feel shame entirely? Through personal examples and theological insights, we examine how treating forgiveness as merely transactional—sin, apologize, repeat—creates a protective shield around hardened hearts rather than fostering genuine transformation. This pattern reveals why distinguishing between guilt (over actions) and shame (connected to identity) matters deeply for spiritual growth.

We navigate the delicate balance between toxic shame that destroys and healthy shame that leads to contrition. As one participant powerfully observes, "Jesus is reaching out with grace and forgiveness... but you've got to answer that with contrition." This biblical framework allows us to recognize when shame serves as a necessary moral compass and when it becomes a destructive force.

Perhaps most fascinating is our examination of how today's supposedly "shameless" culture actually overflows with shame—just redirected toward different targets. The same voices condemning shame will quickly shame others for holding unapproved opinions, creating new moral hierarchies without objective standards. Without a biblical foundation, we struggle to distinguish between shame that heals and shame that harms.

For anyone navigating complex feelings of guilt or shame, or for those seeking to understand how these emotions function in our spiritual lives, this episode offers profound insights that bridge psychology and theology. Join us as we discover how facing shame with biblical clarity can lead not to despair but to the contrition that transforms hearts and restores relationships.

Chapters

• 0:02 Introduction to Part Three
• 2:33 The Danger of Denying Shame
• 8:36 Guilt vs. Shame in Christian Living
• 14:55 Levels of Sin and Appropriate Shame
• 17:29 Teaching Children About Moral Emotions
• 21:32 Shame in a "Shameless" Culture
• 26:54 Healthy Shame vs. Toxic Shame
• 33:16 Shame, Virtue, and Biblical Standards

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone, welcome back to part three of our series in Psych and Theo, and this is part three of our series on guilt and shame. We are with our colleague, jason Glenn and the first two episodes we encourage you to go back and listen to those we talk about the historical and theological foundations of shame and its uses throughout history of shame and its uses throughout history. And then part two, we talked about the current debates about shame and whether it's useful or not, whether it's good or not, and then now we're going to get into some contemporary applications Christian versus non-Christian applications of shame. And you know, we ended ended part two.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Jason, you were making a really good point about the dangers that occur when someone denies shame or loses the ability to feel shame, and I think that's probably a real danger in our culture, a culture that, uh, as we said in the previous episode, is literally or metaphorically demonizing shame and wants nothing to do with shame.

Speaker 1: 1:10

So let's get into that, like, pick up where we left off. What is the danger? And this I guess I'm going to ask this as a devil's advocate question or maybe for our audience, who isn't quite fully tracking with what we're talking about, they might say okay, so what? So some people look at guilt and some people look at shame and you know if it moves their relation, moves them to a better relationship with God. You know what's the difference. You know, like, what's the big deal with making these distinctions between guilt and shame, or or seeing them as connected? What's the big deal about all of this what? What are the dangers? And not having a what, what I think each of us are kind of alluding to, and that's a biblical view of shame.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Yeah, even to just reference my own experience and I did, I did, you know, I did reference it to a degree um, for those three and a half years or so that I was, I was um sowing my wild oats and and fulfilling desires of the flesh and um being disobedient, I was asking for forgiveness a lot. Uh, I would feel bad, I'd feel guilty for a second right, I'd ask for forgiveness and I'm good. And then the next day I would go get drunk, wake up with a hangover, ask for forgiveness, I'm good, and go sleep with my girlfriend. Ask for forgiveness, I'm good. Right, um, I should have felt ashamed of who I was being in in that moment um of my life, rather than simply, uh, like transactional relationship, right to walk with the spirit in newness of life and being who I was supposed to be and rejecting who I was no longer to be. And so when I got to that senior year and I got that vision, I saw, because of the brokenness that I experienced, I saw that glimpse of who I was and I was just crushed and it made me contrite and I have never been the same since that moment. I'm not saying I haven't struggled here and there, of course, with sin again in my life, but I've never been in that place to that level, and so that's what I'm To your point, tim, when you have a positivist view of our identity, that, first of all, is not grounded in price.

Speaker 2: 4:19

It's grounded in pop psychology, especially, or Brene Brown, or whoever right, and it's grounded in this psychology that is detached from a Christian worldview and our real relationship and our real unity or disunity with God. Then it's very easy to turn to this transactional yeah, I did something wrong, but I said sorry, we're good, and and you just live that way and that that often protects you know, oddly enough, it often protects the identity of the broken, hardened individual underneath, of the broken, hardened individual underneath, because all you got to do is is do the sorry thing sorry, sorry, sorry, um and you get your sorries out of the way. And so in our culture that's one, I think, of the great dangers in in, in trying to do away completely with shame, is that you're actually allowing people, you're're giving them a get out of jail free card, you're giving them the ability to try to hide themselves, oddly enough, ironically enough, because we're talking about shame and hiding, and so that, yeah, that's a huge ordeal and so that, yeah, that's a huge ordeal struggle, or girls that struggle with habitual sins that are woven into their, their um, their personal behavior, um, and again, they're not evil because they're in christ jesus, but they have this old person that they are being and they're feeding, and we want to address the shame that they should be feeling and say, okay, and this gets to your point, sam, how we address it is so very important. God loves you, christ loves you. He died on the cross for your sin and shame. He did. He took it on himself. On the cross for your sin and shame. He did. He took it on himself.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Yes, you should feel ashamed, but as soon as you feel that shame and that testimony of the fact that you are not being right with God and you are not, although you are judiciously justified by God because you're a believer and you put your faith in Christ Jesus you are not acting out your faith and your new person on the daily.

Speaker 2: 7:15

You are in a consistently rebellious place in life and you should feel the shame of that. And when you do feel the shame, you should have a contrite heart and you should recognize that Jesus is reaching out to you with grace and love and forgiveness and already has and will continue to do so, and he's there, reaching to you. But you've got to answer that with contrition. And, of course, sam Tim is what does the bible say about a contrite heart? Right, it's what god wants and he will not deny it. Right, that's. It's so very important. Um, I just have a hard time equating guilt solely with that relational dynamic, sam. Help me out here. I mean, can you see at least where I'm struggling with trying to say that guilt is adequate to relate to this contrition, this feeling of disunity that we should have when we're living in habitual sin?

Speaker 3: 8:25

Yeah, no, jason, as you were speaking, I think the thing that popped into my head was levels of sin and levels of shame. For example, you said we should feel ashamed if we're living in a certain way, and I think where that comes into play is like okay, so should I feel the same level of shame for the sin of murder, the same for lying to someone? And maybe that's one of the factors here too is that, well, I mean, I lied to someone, but I don't feel ashamed about it because I did it to protect myself, or it's just a white lie? Right, right, right, right. So I maybe that's a part of this conversation no, totally, depending on the level of sin. Right, because you know how we rate it. Like, this sin is worse than that one.

Speaker 2: 9:13

So maybe that's an element here that people feel shame people feel shame, or some shame, totally, and how, how, how consistently, you do that thing, yeah, and that that's where you get into the identity issues, right, um, uh, and whether you have a propensity to long for something, and this is why we get into the homosexual conversation. This is why we have the debate within christianity tim, and you know we've had these conversations where we're talking about, uh, should I feel ashamed of longing to have a sexual relationship with a man, or should I just feel ashamed when I do have a sexual relationship with a man? Right, and, and that's a, that's a. That's a whole other conversation that we could go episodes on, right. But there's, yes, the consistency of the behavior. There are situations where I've done something wrong. You're right, I've done it. In the moment I lied to the Nazis, you know, let's make it really easy, you know, maybe that's. You know, I was in an awkward situation. I didn't want to hurt a friend's feelings and I just straight up lied to him. Should I feel ashamed about who I was being? Well, if that's not a consistent part of your behavior, guilt is probably what you're going to feel for that. If you're a Christian, you're probably going to feel guilty about it and you probably shouldn't feel ashamed about that, and you probably shouldn't feel ashamed about that. But if you've struggled with lying for the majority of your adult life, or maybe you struggled as a kid with lying and you came out of that and then all of a sudden you're finding yourself back in the situations where you're starting to lie again, well then there's a good chance that shame's going to actually show up in that situation, because you're now talking about a perceived identity that you don't want to be associated with, and rightly so. And there is a weight to that shame that you should feel, from my perspective, that you should feel that weight. That is something that's consistently you're struggling with. You should feel that way. That is something that's consistently you're struggling with. But, tim, the danger again and this is part of the conversation the danger is so disassociating actions from identity that it's all just this transactional. I did that thing. It's not me, I did that thing. It's not me, I did that thing. It's not me, I did that. And so you know whether it's lying or homosexual behavior or pornography. I'm looking at it again and again. I'm looking at it again today, but it's not me. It's not me. Right of the coin.

Speaker 2: 12:02

There is truth to the fact that, as a christian, we are new creations. And so, to your point, sam in, especially as we're educating our children. I'm educating my children saying look, you are not right with god. And at the, you know, all my children praise god, are now created, they're all saved, they're christians, they've you know, they've asked for forgiveness and they're pursuing Christ. But until they did, my wife and I were saying to them you have sinned and you are not right with God and that's why you're sinning, because inside of you is a rebellious attitude that we were all born with and it is a testimony to the fact that there was the fall and it has its consequences. And we're all born into sin and disobedience.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Morally, aware of the fact that you are not right with God, you should want to then repent of that fallenness and that sinfulness and ask for God to forgive you and cleanse you, make you a new person and then help you to live out your new identity in Christ. And so that was our conversations, that was our consistent prayer with our children. And then they came to christ and then the conversation is about who are you in jesus? Who are you going to be in jesus. Yes, you want to be this. Yes, you want to. You want to be this type of person.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Um, I haven't had to have the conversation really that much with my praise god, with my children, on shame, but on shame. But I have had it with other people, that's for sure, christians that were struggling with that issue or with multiple issues. But, yeah, a lot of it does have to do with that early conversation that you have with your kids and that rearing and to say, yes, you are guilty of doing sinful things, but that's because you are not right with God and you should feel ashamed of the fact that you are not right with God and you need to get right with God. And when you consistently, as a Christian, even though you're reconciled with God, even though you are reconciled, if you disobey him, then you feel you should feel ashamed for who you're being. There should come a moment where you see yourself and go, wow, I cannot believe. You know, I am being this person, because that's not who I'm supposed to be, that's not who I am in j and I don't want to be that.

Speaker 3: 14:42

Well, that's good, brother, that's good.

Speaker 2: 14:45

I just preached a sermon. I apologize, Tim. The church of Jason there.

Speaker 3: 14:51

I was thinking also about the influence of the church. You know I know we talked earlier about kind of like sins that are more seen as deplorable and so on Like the church has a huge influence on that, and usually when I work with students it's there's one or two major sins that the parents are just saying you better not do this. And then they go to church, emphasize the same thing and they connect a lot of the way that the church responds to it to how God would respond to it. So if the pastor is preaching from this passage and has this sense of I don't know if I want to say arrogance, but this condemnation and judgmental approach or voice or tone, they associate that well, if I do this, then God looks at it this way and that makes me feel bad. God doesn't want anything to do with me. So it's one of those things I think we mentioned that earlier in one of our other episodes is that it's finding that balance of. You should feel some shame, but you should also understand God's grace is love Totally.

Speaker 2: 15:52

Yeah, god's grace has to be a part of the conversation and, again, that's what I relayed to my children. I had to. I mean cause to, and what do you want to see from the pulpit? You want to see a pastor that says but for the grace of God, there go I. You want, yes, that we should all be ashamed of this sort of activity and this is abhorrent to God. But he has covered us and he has been gracious. He has extended his grace for those of us that believe we have been recipients of that grace and it is available to us in terms of his mercy and his patience and, yes, he wants to work with us as we grow in his likeness.

Speaker 2: 16:42

This, of course, gets to the Eastern Orthodox theosis, you know, as we talked about before.

Speaker 2: 16:48

We should be becoming more like Christ. Right, we should be. Shame should be less and less and less and less a part of our life and less and less and less a part of our life, and in some ways, we should be talking more about the struggle with shame that we have and being accused of things that we are not and being told that we're bad because we are things that are actually good, which is where we're at in our culture right A lot of times, is that the tables are turned and this gets to a really I know we don't have a ton of time, but it gets to the point where there's a lot of shame in a shameless culture. Sam Tim, there's a lot of shaming going on, an enormous amount of shame, and so, even though we say that shaming is bad, and if you get all the you know the psychologists and the politicians and the kids from Harvard in the room and ask them is shame good, they're going to say no and then they're going to hop on Twitter and they're going to shame Donald.

Speaker 2: 17:52

Trump and everybody that likes him for being a horrible person, not just doing bad things, but they're going to watch Elon Musk do one thing they disagree with, and now he's a wretched human being. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Yep, yep, yep. To extricate shame from our sexuality, uh, from our lifestyle choices, is the same culture that will immediately shame someone for having an unapproved opinion about something that's right.

Speaker 2: 18:32

About sexuality as a matter of fact, right. So yeah, it's cis gen. You know they're attempting to shame, via terminology, normative, biblical behaviors.

Speaker 3: 18:46

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point attempt to.

Speaker 1: 18:49

Maybe the thought is this that if and I'm not saying anyone thinks this consciously, but subconsciously if we can shame the shamers out of existence, then we can be free of our own shame.

Speaker 2: 19:15

Oh yeah, some will. Some will come right out and say it yeah, that's, that's exactly right, sam, you were going to say something.

Speaker 3: 19:21

Oh no, it was just that to the point that Tim just said, is that it it alleviates the reality that they're also doing something or that they're doing something wrong, right reality that they're also doing something or that they're doing something wrong, right, like your sin, or your view of this purity approach to marriage or family. Whatever the case, that's worse than my sexual behavior, right? So if they could paint them as that's worse, then that makes them feel a little bit better. Right, so it alleviates the shame, but I think it's still there, both for Christian and non-Christian.

Speaker 1: 19:54

Totally well, here's another example yeah, go ahead here's another example abortion. Yeah, there was a time where abortion was culturally frowned upon, even if it was legal it was not, it was it was not something that you talked about openly, yeah, um, but now there is the.

Speaker 1: 20:15

The radical feminists have gone so far as to quote parties celebrate your abortion, announce it from the rooftops. Yeah, and I something that jay uh bud jusefsky. He's a christian philosopher down in the university of texas at austin. I was listening to a talk that he gave many years ago and he was talking about abortion and it related to other things like sexuality, and he said that the public celebration of these things is, in a way, a form of confession, because if you can, if you can get other people on your side, if you could say, hey, I did this thing and you're doing something that's extremely shameful, but you're doing it in such a brazen way that other people get on board with you, then it actually mitigates the shame that you feel. Yeah, it is. People have to confess what they do. We have to it comes out in them. That's right, because they want to be what they do. We have to it comes out in them.

Speaker 2: 21:14

That's right, because they want to be their own gods, they want to be right, they want to be in a right, whole relationship with their creator. So they have to make a creator in the energy of themselves and then they can say that they're right with that. That's what we see in public education. That's what we see in public education right. That's what we see in psychology, developmental psychology Make a God, make an ideal that we can meet ourselves, that everybody that is reasonable, that aligns with us, that validates us, can meet. And then, those that are judgmental, that don't approve of us, we will make a new standard that says that they are the shameful ones. They are the ones that are unloving and it's shameful to be unloving. They are the ones that are judgmental, it is shameful to be judgmental. And so you create a whole new moral reality in which you're right.

Speaker 1: 22:18

I can go out and celebrate my wickedness and claim it is good yeah, and we even see instances of this in movies and uh television, where the the caricature, like you always know, it's like the christian. The christian caricature is this moralistic prude that's judgmental of everyone and is ultimately a hypocrite. They're always shown to be a hypocrite in the show because they're doing exactly the same things as everyone else. They're just pretending to be more righteous than other people, and that speaks to the cynicism of our culture that they don't cynicism is is this uh view that everyone acts out of extremely selfish ulterior motives. And so if you can paint the culture in an extremely cynical light that there's no, there's no extremely cynical light that there's no, there's no good, there's no virtue, there's no one that's actually attempting to live out a holy life, then I don't have to feel so guilty about the way that I act either.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Yeah, no, you're right, I it. I. You understand right why the people that hate shame hate shame. Right, because the shame. You understand why the people that hate shame hate shame. Because shame makes you want to run to those who validate you. It does Because you can hide with them. They say misery love company. Well, the shame really love company. Because you can go and you can feel desired. You can go and you can feel desired, you can feel accepted if you go find those that agree with as being good or as at least being amoral, the thing that you feel innately shameful about, and homosexual is the top kind of cultural topic on this issue. If I could just go find a community that accepts my feelings and desires and longings and says that it's at least normal and good, so, and you know, then the well-meaning Christian psychologist or pastor says we don't want those people running over there. We don't want those people running over there. Uh, so let's just do away with shame, let's, let's just like put that aside and say that's not a healthy thing.

Speaker 2: 24:43

But the reality is is shame is not a wieldable tool holistically. Yes, it can be wielded. Yes, it is wielded by many people and by Satan, but it is also something innately that we have and feel, no matter what, because of Romans 1. And this gets back to my first statement in my first episode. We have a disunity with God that is going to testify to us no matter what, and we're all guilty before it. We're all ashamed, should be ashamed, of that disunity with God. And when we teach people to just run to the communities that accept them and don't bring up and show them what the word says about their activities and about who they're being, then we're lying. Ultimately, we're lying to these individuals. We are making it difficult for repentance and contrition to happen. In my opinion, right.

Speaker 2: 25:51

The other ironic thing is rarely do you hear the same thing talked about in relationship to anger, you know. Rarely, you know, do you have the same thing talked about in terms of other emotions? Yeah, other emotions that can be just as toxic, just as abused, just as manipulated, but they are less connected in that primordial slash biblical Genesis narrative, to the fact that we are disconnected with God, genesis narrative to the fact that we are disconnected with god. But but they are.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Anger can be just as toxic, just as destructive, just as harmful in terms of its effect, uh, on on society and on us as individuals, and you don't necessarily see the same arguments being pushed back on those emotions but shame. The fact that we are having these conversations, the fact that we do struggle so much with accepting shame as something that can be addressed in a healthy manner and can be owned temporarily just is another testimony to the fact that it's so very innately important to the human condition and it's always going to be. And as a Christian, I feel like we have a very strong narrative, a very strong reality that if we just own it and recognize the place of shame, then shame can have a healthy role and and they can see toxic shame coming a mile down the road, because they know what a healthy feeling of shame to feel like versus a toxic, uh, feeling of shame to feel like versus a toxic feeling of shame that has nothing to do with their relationship with God or a godly relationship with the other.

Speaker 3: 28:24

That was great, jason. That was really good. You know, it speaks to this idea of some Christians also who feel that if I'm anxious, then that means I'm not trusting God enough, or if I feel depressed, that means I'm not trusting. If I feel shame, that means something's wrong, and so it is pointing to this aspect of I need to address something and the mental health field. We have one approach called internal family systems, and the idea is that there's parts of you that are trying to communicate something and that it's important to pay attention to each one, and in this case, we do it with anxiety.

Speaker 3: 28:58

Right, I feel anxious about going to meet you know this this couple over here, this church, go to this church and so on, and you say, okay, what is that telling you? And you explore that depression, kind of the same thing, but with shame. I haven't seen a lot going there, but it is something that's starting to, at least for myself and a couple of other counselors starting to address and counseling. Okay, what is that shame telling you? And it says, kind of this idea that comes up, I'm not good enough, or they're going to judge me, right, all these different things that come up. But, yeah, shame has been seen in such a negative light that there's no room made for it in the counseling space where there should be. You should be able to sit with it and say, okay, what is this telling me about myself? And eventually you get to this point of there's something wrong between my relationship with God as well. So to your point, kind of leading us back to reestablishing that connection with our creator.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Yeah, and with each other. An abusive husband that's been a bit abusive for 15 years needs to feel ashamed. He needs to wake up one day and go crap. Oh, my goodness, who have I been to my wife? Uh, lord jesus, please forgive me, my, my love, please, please forgive me. You should see the contrition, you should see the shame that leads to contrition. And if but yeah, if you don't, if you don't recognize that as as valid and you don't talk people through that, that feeling that they they rightly should be feeling sometimes, that you know, then I think that they lose a moment where they could be drawn into healthy relationships and a healthy understanding of themselves, for that matter. Right, right.

Speaker 2: 30:44

And sometimes it's a lie, like you said. You know, sometimes it's a lie and you should be thinking through is this a lie? Is this who I've been being? Is this me? Is this relevant to my life? This feeling that I'm having, that somebody's either accusing me of, or that I'm just innately feeling because something bad happened to me as a child or I had this event in my life that I started identifying myself with. Should I be feeling that? And oftentimes the answer is no. So with the psychologist, the evolutionary psychologist and the school counselors and the well-meaning parents and pastors, we can say yeah. There are plenty of times when we can say no, that's not healthy, that's a lie, get it out when we can say no, that's, that's not healthy, that's a lie, get it out.

Speaker 1: 31:36

Yeah, and this kind of comes back to our final and original point, and that was without, without an objective standard by which to to identify right and wrong forms of shame. Um, the psychology world, mental health world, our culture, is left adrift. Yeah, you know you can. When, just in the last few minutes, we've been throwing out terms like ought I to feel shameful or ought you know, should I feel shameful for this? All these questions ought and should, uh, they imply a moral, some sort of moral standard. That's right. So it's.

Speaker 1: 32:12

It's like if I'm feeling shameful and I, it's good to ask yourself should I feel shameful for this thing? And if the answer is no, the answer is no because I'm appealing to some objective standard that is higher than my feelings of shame. So if I say like, I feel shameful for my situation in life, you know, whatever that is, have I done something objectively wrong to merit that shame? And if the answer is no, well then that shame is not of God, it's not biblical, it's not correct. And so, just to drive it home, you know, a biblical worldview, or shame must be grounded in a biblical worldview in order to make sense.

Speaker 2: 32:58

That's right, that's exactly right.

Speaker 3: 32:59

But see, I wonder if that's the part that also makes it difficult for people to make sense of, because it is an internal experience that they feel, for example, someone could feel shame for asking for help. That's not a sin, that's right. Feel, for example, someone could feel ashamed for asking for help. That's not a sin, right. So it's one of those things where if they, if they um, feel ashamed for asking for help, they make that a big part of their identity and it's hard to distinguish. Like is this should I feel bad about this or should?

Speaker 2: 33:27

men don't. Men don't ask for help. Men don't know. Yeah, women don't go out of the house without makeup on. You know, there are just so many cultural nuances that we can agree that are simply unhealthy. As it pertains to being shamed for those things, that's not right, you know, that's not good, but there are plenty of things that we should feel shame about, you're right. And the Christian worldview. The irony is and I'll end on this the irony is is that we want to be a virtuously driven society person, but you cannot talk, you cannot positively speak of virtues and then negatively only speak of actions. You can't. You can't do that because virtue is inherently about character and identity, and so the whole identity that in a whole social paradigm which everybody signs on to, that we should seek to be virtuous people, that whole paradigm is inherently related to the fact that we should not do shameful things and we should not be shameful people, and there is an identity that is shameful. That's not virtuous, right? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 34:59

Yeah, yeah, there, you know, in order to act virtuously, we must first identify what it means to be virtuous and what the why. The virtues are virtues in and of themselves, yeah, so virtue is not.

Speaker 2: 35:11

Virtue is not doing bad would be the illogical way of saying what we want to say, because we don't want to claim the bad side of that spectrum.

Speaker 1: 35:21

Yeah, All right guys. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Jason, we want to thank you for this three-part series and the in-depth discussions on on various topics and the wealth of knowledge that you bring to it. Thank you for the rigorous debate, at times too, on the subjects of guilt and shame.

Speaker 2: 35:42

Whether it was necessary or warranted or not. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 35:46

But no, it was good. So, guys, audience members, thank you for listening. So, guys, audience members, thank you for listening, and we will see you next time with hopefully with another series, something like this, we'll see.

Speaker 2: 35:59

Sam Tim. Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate this. It's been a privilege and an honor to be with you.

Speaker 3: 36:05

Thanks, Jason.