Ep. 51 - When Hiding Isn't Healing: Reconsidering Shame in Christian Life w/ Jason Glen

Shame—is it Satan's tool or a divine signal pointing us toward right relationship with God and others? In this second episode of our three-part series with Jason Glenn, we wade into the controversial waters of modern debates around shame and guilt.

While American society increasingly views shame as the source of nearly all social ills, historical perspectives across cultures show shame serving both positive and negative functions throughout human history. This tension sets the stage for our exploration of how Enlightenment thinking and developmental psychology transformed our understanding of these complex emotions.

We dissect the crucial distinction many psychologists and theologians make: guilt says "I did something bad" while shame says "I am bad." But is this separation always helpful or even accurate? Through personal testimonies and theological reflection, Jason challenges the increasingly popular view that Christians should never feel shame, offering a powerful counterexample where shame led not to hiding but to contrition and reconciliation.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when we consider influential Christian voices like Curt Thompson who literally "demonize" shame as Satan's tool in the Garden of Eden. This perspective has gained significant traction, yet raises troubling questions: Are we losing something vital when we attempt to eliminate shame entirely? Is there spiritual danger in disconnecting our actions from our identity?

As we wrestle with these questions, we discover unexpected insights from historical thinkers like Aquinas and Aristotle who viewed shame as living "in the imagination and potentiality of virtuous people." This perspective suggests shame might serve as a moral compass, helping us avoid becoming someone we don't want to be.

Join us for this thought-provoking exploration that challenges both secular and religious assumptions about emotions that profoundly shape our lives, relationships, and spiritual journeys. And don't miss our conclusion to this series next week, where we'll examine the contemporary problems arising from our culture's refusal to feel shame.

Chapters

• 0:02 Welcome Back to Shame & Guilt
• 4:24 Developmental Psychology and Shame
• 8:47 Enlightenment Shifts in Understanding Shame
• 14:41 Identity vs. Behavior in Christianity
• 21:42 Personal Experiences with Shame
• 29:44 Demonizing Shame in Modern Christianity
• 34:40 The Purpose and Virtue of Shame

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone Well welcome back to Psych and Theo Glad, you're joining us for another week and we are here again with Jason Glenn talking about shame and guilt and the controversies and current arguments about this topic. If you missed part one of this series, go back and listen to that. We cover a very broad base of historical uses of shame, historical understandings of shame and to put that into modern relevance. You know our culture wants to. By our culture I mean American society tends to want to downplay shame, get rid of shame, because they see shame as the source of virtually all the social ills and evils that we deal with. And so if we could just deal get rid of shame, then we could cure a lot of things that are wrong with with society.

Speaker 1: 0:58

But the reason we started with history is because we wanted to show that this with history is because we wanted to show that this idea of shame goes back way, way, way before. Let me rephrase that it goes back. It's virtually universal in all societies and all societies see both a positive and a negative use of this shame concept. It and a negative use of this shame concept. It's a negative feeling that we feel, but there's, so it's some sort of it's intrinsically evil but it's extrinsically good in some senses because it can be used to point us in the right direction. It can cause us to see that our relationship with God is not right or our relationship with society is not right and to move us into, uh, to doing things to rectify that situation.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Uh, and so we covered a lot of different figures in history who had different takes on this idea of shame. But, uh, the takeaway, the key takeaway, is that, um, this is a universal human condition, uh, experienced by everyone across all of time is that this is a universal human condition, experienced by everyone across all of time. So I'm really curious how the modern mind thinks that we can extricate ourselves from shame and that will somehow solve a problem for us. So let's get into it. All right, jason, we asked you at the end of the first episode what was the central controversy around guilt and shame. So you want to start there and then we'll get into maybe some names and figures and people and, yeah, kinds of things yeah, again, this is, you know, our third session.

Speaker 2: 2:43

we can we can have a little bit of this conversation as well, because it's all very applicable. But when you start to get into shame and the results of shame throughout history, and then you get into the modern mind, reflecting on what shame has been in those cultures and what it has done, so much of this revolves around what we would refer to as the Enlightenment and this self-awareness and this idea that we are good innately, um, we are good innately, um. So we, we get away a little bit from the Christian worldview in order to get into a more thoroughgoing controversy, uh, about the fact that shame is bad, is it's more holistically bad than it is positive. We've got to get into a worldview, if you will, is positive. We've got to get into a worldview, if you will, that doesn't adhere to the bible, and that's what we started to see, you know, in the 19th, 18th century, even in 19th century, for sure, um, and and when, again, the 20th century, uh, you start to get into developmental psychology, and this is where sam, of course, would be more versed than myself, probably um, but we, we get into an area where we see that shame is so painful and it causes so much inner turmoil that there's got to be uh and it. It gives the impression that we're bad, that we have that we personally we've not just done something bad, we are bad.

Speaker 2: 4:33

And there was a shift multiple shifts, of course, in thinking, if you will, especially in the 19th century, coming out of German idealism. A lot of that came out of Europe. Postmodernism starts coming out of german idealism. A lot of that coming out of europe post-modernism starts coming out of that, this idea that no, we're not innately bad, uh, we're actually. You know, christianity is not right, uh, it's actually really harmful, uh, to say that we are innately sinful and that we have sinful desires from birth. You know, you know from the earliest stages, and all that does is cause this angst in us that it actually does cause some people to commit suicide. And then drug addiction got much more thoroughgoing throughout the world, uh, thoroughgoing throughout the world, um, and then people wanted to shame the drug addiction, uh, the people with drug addictions, as being horrible people. And then you, then you have uh, loosening sexual norms, uh, and in, and we move away from a Christian society. But we're still enough in a Christian society that the Christians go, that person is a sinful homosexual or that person. So there was just a lot of things and again we can kind of get more of that in our third session that caused developmental psychology and psychologists and counselors to go. There's got to be a better way to address harmful behaviors and so guilt guilt, for a lot of them became that way, guilt and the. You know, you see this in the uh 1950s, um, again, sam, you know, if I, if I screw anything up here immediately let me know.

Speaker 2: 6:33

But uh, eric erickson, eric erickson's uh, eight stages of of psychosocial development, um, that was a big development. Uh, where he's talking about um, shame is something that we from the earliest age, from age one to three, we feel um, because, um, we don't get from mommy what we want to get, sometimes, because our poo, poo is bad, because we wet and we make, we, we, we have these things that we do that are rejected and um, therefore, we feel ashamed about that. Uh, we have these desires that are not um, reciprocated, they're not given into, they're rejected, uh, they're, they're punished, if you will, sometimes. And and so we, from the earliest age, we have this not very developed emotional response to the fact that we don't like the way we are being treated and therefore there must be something bad in us. And then psychologists would say that that develops narcissism. Uh, most of them would call that primitive shame. Um, but they would say that that causes narcissism in people. And then then then they're dealing with that narcissism the rest of their life.

Speaker 2: 7:57

And then they but they say, the true development comes when you get to guilt You're cognitively aware more so of actions and your agency in those actions, and the hope is that you'll have just enough correction to help nurture you and form you into right action.

Speaker 2: 8:22

But too much you know, too much correction, too much discipline, too much, too much saying no, no, no, no can cause you to feel guilty all the time.

Speaker 2: 8:32

That's, we can get into the irony of that conversation because because a part of the a bigger part of the conversation is is there a difference between shame and guilt, right?

Speaker 2: 8:45

Bigger part of the conversation is is there a difference between shame and guilt, right? And the guilt folks really want to say yeah, guilt is that feeling that you feel bad about something that you did. That's not, that is not a representation of your identity. It's not, it's not who you are, something you did and you and you can correct it, or at least you can pay for it in some fashion. You can make it right, or you can go to jail, or you can pay the consequence and then it's over. But it's not part of your character, no-transcript, that he becomes a gangster that just goes around and kills people. He's a psychotic. Uh, so that's that's the idea as to why guilt would be better uh, in for human flourishing would probably be the best way to put it than shame, because they see that shame is just too harmful to a person's self-awareness jason, you hit on really good good points there and I think you you discern or define them each well.

Speaker 3: 10:11

Where guilt is I did something bad, shame is I am bad. And that goes back to. I'm really glad that you also touch on the young childhood development, because for them when you say you did something bad, they can't make sense of that because they're still small, right. So for them it's just they know that their body is experiencing or feeling a certain way and they don't know what to do with that. It's just here's how I feel and here's the message that's being attached that you're bad because you know you did this, because you threw that, therefore, therefore, you're bad. And so they kind of keep that, that idea of I feel this way and here's what's associated with it. Um, and then you have this next stage, and I think you kind of alluded to this as well. They get into the teenage years, another form of development where identity is the development, the psychosocial stage. There it's all about identity. Who am I, who am I in the context of my friends, of my parents, and so on?

Speaker 3: 11:07

yeah, all of those beliefs and experience that they've had. Now they're starting to make sense of it as adolescence, which then moves into their adulthood. And, um, there's this aspect in the research it's called shame proneness, how some people are just more prone to it because of personality traits. Um, but, yeah, I mean, you touched on all of that I think they're also called firstborn children, if I'm not mistaken also right. Exactly, they do experience the highest levels of. That's correct that's right.

Speaker 1: 11:36

Yes, so, if you don't mind, jason, just can recap. You mentioned the Enlightenment and I kind of want to retrace for our audience how we might have got to this point from the Enlightenment. So the Enlightenment is this period of time, like you mentioned, in the 1700s, 1800s and on into the 1900s, where there is this movement away from traditional religious beliefs. If I could boil it down that way, it's a movement toward. It's essentially a movement about how do we know things? And the movement is away from religious dogma. We don't know things because the Bible says so. We don't know things because religious authorities tell us what to know. We know things because we observe them. We know things because we use our reason to deduce things and infer things.

Speaker 1: 12:29

And so from this you get rationalism and empiricism, which are philosophies that try to get at the world and what we can know, and then, stemming from that, you get the scientific method and what we've referred to a few times on the show. The scientific worldview, which is everything that we can know, comes to us through science. And if we have that worldview in our culture, the culture becomes steeped in this idea that all that we can know has to be known through science. And so when you plug that idea into the mental health space or psychology and psychiatry, then they, they, they, they then start to look at well, what? What is shame, what is guilt? Where does shame come from? Uh, and what is its uses? So there's a very pragmatic approach to shame and guilt. Um, so is shame useful or not? You know, along with the enlightenment came neo-darwinism, which is the belief in evolution, and from that comes evolutionary psychology psychology, that's right yeah, yeah, and so I I may be stealing your thunder.

Speaker 2: 13:41

I hope I'm not no, no, you're not, please. I like the fact that you did that. I didn't want to do that yeah, uh, so.

Speaker 1: 13:48

So a lot of modern behavioral psychologists uh, use this they use in their paradigm is evolutionary psychology. So they'll ask the question where does shame come from? Well, shame comes from some innate evolutionary mechanism meant to drive us to more social cohesion or whatever, something like that. But if it becomes too extreme, then then it becomes pathological or antisocial, and so we have to. We have to treat it in a way that we have to come up with better treatments for it. So there's never a question of does shame actually point me to some metaphysical reality outside of myself, like like my relationship with god? Right, right, it's always like how does this, how does shame function in relation to me and my tribe?

Speaker 2: 14:38

yeah, yeah, how, yeah, how did my parents jack me up and how am I going to jack my kids up?

Speaker 2: 14:44

That's what it comes down to and that's really where they're pointing at. And yet, to get back to, kind of the overarching conversation of the second session, you still have a theological debate, right, bait, right, because you still have those, let's say, even in the health wealth tradition or charismatic theology, right, the name it claim it I am, you know, I am God's child and, in the name of Jesus, all of this is mine, right? Let's give it the you know. Let's give it the you know. Let's give it. It's just dues, for you know that they mean well, and and they're, they're trying to rightly discern from the word of God. And there's some meat there. We are new in Christ Jesus. We've been bought with a price. We're not our own. We we are, we've died with Christ, we've been raised to life, a newness of life. We are a new creation, right? So there's certainly texts that we can point to and say I am this new person and Jesus is my identity.

Speaker 2: 15:59

And so you have Christians that will say shame, we have nothing to do with shame. Shame is satanic. Shame is just Satan trying to make you think that you're the old guy and not the new guy and you don't own that brother, you can't own that. And so when shame comes a knocking, you get out, you run, you rebuke it, you reject it. That is not your identity, right? So that is most definitely a stream of Christian theology that is still very relevant today.

Speaker 2: 16:39

And then on the more academic side of that kind of that same scenario and I'm going to name some names here because it's important is the Kurt Thompson camp. The Soul of Shame is a book, and Kurt has interacted with liberty and evangelical world in general and in America and he's his well-known name. But he would say something essentially very similar and that is that shame is innately the tool of Satan. It was the tool of Satan in the garden. It was shame that Satan used to make Eve fall, to make Eve do what she did, and then, of course, adam fell because of that. But it was shame that the serpent, he would say, it's shame that the serpent used to make Eve eat the apple, to make eve eat the apple. So that's first of all. I'm like whoa, that's a, that's a pretty big theological claim.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Um, in many ways, uh, you said something, sam, you said something in the last, I think, session that that I'm still wrestling with personally, but I think it's legitimate. I think it's true. I don't think that shame was the first emotion felt. I think pride was.

Speaker 2: 18:10

Shame is empowered by pride, and I would say that, there again, it's that desire to see yourself in a way that is positive, even when it's not, even when the truth is that it's not positive. And so, in my opinion, pride is often the instigator of the feeling of shame, Because your thoughts on your identity have been violated, your positive view of yourself has been violated, and so this is actually, in some ways, kurt wouldn't necessarily frame it that way, frame it that way, but he would say that satan used shame to, uh, to shame eve into thinking that she can be better and someone better than she is, and that god is keeping her from her best self, and and so, therefore, shame is inherently evil, it's inherently a tool of Satan, it is, in its nature, a tool of Satan. I'm going to actually quote. I have him right here. Shame, therefore, is not simply an unfortunate, random emotional event that came with us out of the primordial evolutionary soup, out of the primordial evolutionary soup. It is both a source and result of evil's act of assault on God's creation and a way for evil to try to hold out until the new heaven and earth appear and the consumption of history. So, yeah, he didn't have any positive view of shame in that sense. So you still have this struggle in our Christian day and time, where you have those that say no shame, like myself, I would say.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Shame is actually an evidential, consequential testimony to the fact that we're not right with God, that a disunity took place and that it needs to be made right. And shame doesn't make you hide. There have been plenty of people in this world that have hidden, that have felt shame and not hidden. Think about that maybe on your own terms sham and ten. There have been an instance, certainly in my own life, when I have felt shame and I have responded with contrition, with a contrite heart. I felt it, I saw what I did and I said wow, I saw who I was and I said man, I don't want to be that, I don't want to be that person.

Speaker 2: 21:18

I was disobedient for three and a half years. I was rebellious, sowing my wild oats. In college at Texas A&M I was in. I was disobedient. For three and a half years. I was rebellious. So in my wild oats in college at Texas A&M, I was in the Corps of Cadets. I was a drunkard, uh, I was an abusive individual, um, and I was, uh, just ignoring God and I I knew what I was doing. I was a Christian.

Speaker 2: 21:39

I, yeah, I felt bad about it and I would even ask god to forgive me periodically, but I was holistically being someone that I was not supposed to be and I got crushed by some instances in my life. My dad got cancer, I I got in trouble in rotc. I, yeah, I I was, you know, ROTC. I was reprimanded, penalized and all of these things came crashing down and it put me in a space where I finally saw. In a moment, I saw myself in a way that I had not seen myself prior and I was ashamed and I called my parents and I started bawling on the phone saying please forgive me for who I had been over the past three and a half years. I had, I have, I have um, slandered our name. I, I have you shame, and I responded with contrition and I have known a lot of individuals that have responded. So all that to say shame doesn't always make you hide. Hiding is just the easiest thing to do when shame comes thing to do when shame comes.

Speaker 3: 23:04

I appreciate you sharing that part of your story, jason. I think one of the things that came up as you were sharing that could it also have been the overwhelming weight of guilt, for I did these things wrong and I want to correct those things. So guilt can lead to this aspect of I know what I did was wrong and I need to correct it. Shame and and you've and you touched on this right I didn't like the person I was becoming or who I was at the time, so that shame has that identity attached to it, right. So how did you distinguish between one or the other? Is it specifically the way you saw yourself, or was it I did these things? Therefore, I am these things.

Speaker 2: 23:49

Yeah, I was being someone that I did not want to be and that I knew that I was not in Christ Jesus. And this, sam, this is where it gets. This is where the shame, this is where you and I may have to battle it out. Shame has to do innately with identity. Our relationship with Jesus Christ has to do innately with our identity, who we are in Christ. Yes, we are a new creation. Yes, the old is gone, the new has come.

Speaker 2: 24:22

And yet Paul says what I still do, what I don't want to do and what I want to do I don't want to do. And Paul says to the Corinthians you should feel ashamed for what you've been doing, but you don't. So Paul is recognizing that the Christians in Corinth he names them as Christians their conduct is shameful and yet they are not having a contrite spirit, a contrite spirit. And yet there are moments that we can point to in the text where we do see a person that is contrite, that has been doing, being, and this is the other complexity, and it gets back to that larger conversation of the difference in guilt and shame and whether there is a difference. Like I said, my buddy that just wrote the book on the Hebrew culture and Old Testament, he would say that guilt is a status before God, it's not an emotion. And just to clarify, the Greeks didn't have a differentiation between guilt and shame, and so a lot of what we would reference as guilt they use the term shame for in addition to the other references to shame, and so it was over to get to, should they get to, tim's point. It's not until we get to this enlightenment bred, uh, evolutionary psychology that we start even trying to differentiate between what guilt and shame is. We're having this conversation right now because of secular psychology. I'm not saying that there's not meat to it. I personally agree that there is an emotion.

Speaker 2: 26:16

I lost my dad's letter jacket and I felt so guilty about it. I didn't attach it to my identity letter jacket and I felt so guilty about it. I didn't attach it to my identity, but, man, I felt guilty about it. My dad came up behind me in high school, grabbed me by the neck and did the neck pinch when he was, like you know, 55 years old, and I stomped on his foot and broke it.

Speaker 2: 26:38

I felt so guilty about that. I felt so guilty about that, you know, and every now and then I still I mean really guilty, especially when he ended up dying of bone cancer. So I'm like, oh, freaking crap, did I kill my dad? But the point is is that I don't attach that to my identity. I feel guilty about it, mm-hmm, in terms of the fact that guilt, at least in that worldview, has to do with our status, judicial status before God. Are we guilty or are we not? And shame happens within the motion of shame happens within that's how he would articulate within that status. You know something more to feed on there? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:38

So here's a question, for I think both of you guys could be, and Tim and I have talked about this where, because we live in a shameless culture, there are Christians or people who proclaim Christianity and they do things that do not align with scripture and they don't feel any shame about it. They don't, they don't attach their identity to that bad behavior and so on. But what does seem to be common is that there isn't an acknowledgement, or not even an acknowledgement of something that they did that was wrong or sinful.

Speaker 2: 28:14

So so they, if give me a give me a verbal kind of uh example of that.

Speaker 3: 28:18

Yeah like, for example, someone who's sleeping with their boyfriend or girlfriend, right, okay, yeah, and. And they're identifying themselves as christian and they say, well, this is fine, because you know it's modern times. This is just what people do and, yeah, they don't feel any shame or guilt about that because somewhere in their mind, they've made peace with that not being part of their identity and do not see it as something that's wrong or that.

Speaker 2: 28:41

But the christian then shows up. But they are christian, let's say, they go to church and they slept with their girlfriend, have been sleeping with their girlfriend for for months, even they've been. They've been, of course, looking at pornography for years. Uh, and they? You're saying that that person is more prone to simply say, yeah, I did, I did something bad again.

Speaker 3: 29:05

That they want to attach their identity, their Christian identity, to what they're actually doing, their sin.

Speaker 2: 29:13

And this we're jumping in maybe into the third session material here. But the difference I think I would have to push back a little bit on that because having worked with guys and in my own life struggling with pornography in the past there's they see themselves as less as an individual because of their addiction. I run into that countless, countless times. So even in the midst of our shameless culture, there is an extremely shameful substream of activity that has attached itself to, I would say, people even outside of the Christian worldview, but definitely with people within the Christian worldview. That's a good point.

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yeah, I want to bring it back to something, jason, you brought up a little bit ago. Kirk Thompson, yeah, and his view about, and I think he's probably endemic of or emblematic of a wider array of Christian thought that is to literally demonize shame.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Yeah, literally yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Yeah, literally demonize it, make it it's part of the demonic realm, it's part of the satanic realm. Yeah, that's true, a Christian should not feel shame at all. And to Sam's point, I think that's. I think what Sam was getting at is that there are some Christians who buy into that ideology to think I shouldn't feel, I don't need to feel shame about what I've done. I just acknowledge that it's wrong and I just don't do it. But quote, unquote, it's not who I am, you know, and so I I.

Speaker 1: 31:10

I observed this attitude sometimes where, um, uh, it's almost like this attempt I think it's, I would, I would call it a form of self-deception where it's an attempt to separate myself from my actions. Um, so I did something wrong, but that's not me, it's just something I did. I think the careful thinker and this is where shame gets demonized is that a careful thinker, a deep thinker, will look at this and say you know what? The reason I did that wrong thing is because of who I am. Like I'm a sinner and I do sinful things because I'm a sinner. Yeah, put it in theological language. But I think a lot of people want to separate, it's like. It's like disassociating their actions from their identity. Now, sam and I have talked about this. There's a danger in thinking that, like we're children oh child, you did a bad thing thing, therefore you're a bad kid yeah then a child you know, a child can can learn to just beat themselves over the head like that.

Speaker 1: 32:25

That's right. But the, the seems the opposite extreme is someone who refuses to acknowledge the connection between their identity and the the guilty or wrong things that they do. And the guilty or wrong things that they do yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:41

Yeah, I think, yeah, what informs that? And I think this is where we look at it from that perspective of how do you arrive to a healthy view of shame like we're talking about here? Because I do think it does have an essential use in our lives, but it's how the parents have treated that child right? And I think, if I remember correctly, kirk thompson, I think, if correct me, if I'm wrong his father, I think, was an alcoholic and I think he was abusive towards him, so the shame messages that he received, he grew up with that. So he's trying to over correct on on the other side, like he sees its use, he knows that it could be healthy, but he's trying to protect someone from receiving that end of it. So there's this overcorrection that's happening.

Speaker 2: 33:26

No, I agree yeah.

Speaker 3: 33:28

Yeah, and you guys have kind of mentioned this aspect of the evolutionary psychologist. They will look at it and say, well, what's the purpose of shame? At it and say, well, what's the purpose of shame? And the purpose of shame and or or hiding from, uh from shame is to maintain face right, to maintain status. So that's why shame is essential, or it's useful if it can help me uh with my relationships, cause if I share this with this person in my church, they're going to push me away, I'm going to be seen in a negative light, I won't have relationships. God's going to push. So all of these things. So the usefulness of shame is to hopefully at some point be able to be in a space where you feel safe and vulnerable to share. You know what's really going on.

Speaker 2: 34:14

Yeah, in line with that, shame would also then serve. And this is, you know, aquinas gets into this. They do say that shame lives in the and this Aristotle gets at it too shame lives in the imagination and the potentiality of virtuous people. Hmm, because you are projecting what would happen if you did something. You would feel a great sense of shame.

Speaker 2: 34:45

I have had dreams where I've cheated on my wife and I have had thoughts about, wow, what it would, what would it be like if I cheated on my wife, what would it be like if I cheated on my life? And in those thoughts it was not about guilt, it was about what type of person would I be being if I went and did this? And man, I would feel naked, I would feel wretched, I would feel like a being that I did not want to be. And so, again, that gets back to Aquinas' and Aristotle's statement that virtuous people, their relationship with shame, is in potentialities only, because they're projecting forward and going no, that's not who I want to be, and that's in a virtue ethics that has nothing to I want to be, and that's that's an, a virtue ethics. That's has nothing to do with the do, the, the, the, the needs the guilt actions. That's talking about being an identity.

Speaker 1: 35:52

All right, guys, I'd love to keep this going, but we need to wrap up part two and go on to part three, and something that you said, jason, a couple of minutes ago I think was and go on to part three and uh, something that you said, jason, a couple minutes ago I think was a good segue into part three, and that was the danger that comes from the refusal to feel shame, or the inability to feel shame, and the types of uh spiritual danger that maybe comes from that. So I think that's a good segue into part three and dealing with the contemporary problems of our culture and the refusal to feel shame. Yeah, so let's wrap it up there and then we will see you all next week for part three.