Ep. 49 - Are You in a Relationship with a Selfish Person or a True Narcissist?

Narcissism has become the diagnosis du jour in our culture, with people quick to label selfish exes and difficult bosses as "narcissists." But what does it really mean to date someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Sam and Tim dive deep into this complex topic, examining the crucial difference between everyday selfishness and true narcissism.

The conversation reveals surprising statistics – only 5% of people have diagnosable NPD, with 75% of those being men. This gender disparity raises fascinating questions about how our culture subtly rewards certain narcissistic traits in men while punishing them in women. The hosts break down the nine clinical traits of narcissism and provide practical examples of how these manifest in romantic relationships.

Most valuably, Sam offers a brilliant framework for distinguishing healthy confidence from narcissistic arrogance: "Confidence is growth from the previous self, while arrogance is comparison with others who are below them." This insight helps listeners evaluate their own relationships with new clarity. The discussion also explores the roots of narcissism, challenging the assumption that it stems solely from being over-praised in childhood.

For anyone questioning their relationship dynamics, the episode provides specific behavioral red flags to watch for, along with practical advice for both dating situations and marriages where narcissism may be present. The hosts strike a perfect balance between psychological depth and everyday application, making complex personality dynamics accessible without oversimplification.

Whether you're dating, supporting someone in a difficult relationship, or simply curious about the psychology behind our self-obsessed culture, this episode offers invaluable insights that go far beyond the clickbait understanding of narcissism that dominates today's conversation.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and UFO Episode Feedback
• 0:56 Are You Dating a Narcissist?
• 5:35 Nine Traits of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
• 12:09 Statistics and Gender Differences in NPD
• 16:09 The Root Causes of Narcissism
• 21:38 Confidence vs. Arrogance in Relationships
• 28:13 Signs of Dating a Narcissist
• 36:20 Advice for Dating and Marriage Situations
• 44:02 Dealing with Abuse and Seeking Help

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. Sam and Tim here talking about, well, first of all, just kind of mentioning the genuine interest that a lot of you have shown in the UFO episodes. Tim did a great job addressing that topic and I guess we're kind of surprised how much interest it's garnered. So Tim says he just scratched the surface. So there's probably plenty more where we can discuss at a later time, but we just thank you for tuning in and providing some support with that. And today, though, I wanted to talk about a big topic.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Another one of our famous episodes from earlier in the season was is everyone really a narcissist? That's a big trigger word in culture in the counseling field, so today just wanted to apply that to what does that look like in a relationship? And the question is are you dating a narcissist? Is that really a thing? What does that look like? What are some stats on it? What are some confusions that we have about the topic in general? Because there seems to be some miscommunication but misconstruing some of the terms that we see for a certain type of person and also someone who actually does have NPD. So we'll dig into that today. But yeah, tim, big topic here. Just in general, when we talk about narcissism, I guess what comes to mind when you hear this word thrown out in culture or in conversations.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Well, I think the term is catching on a lot. In fact, it's probably getting overused, like everything else, like trauma and other words words like that. So it's unfortunate, because narcissism, you know, is a legitimate problem in some areas of society, um, but uh, I think people are starting to overuse the term and confuse just plain selfishness with narcissism um, although I do think that social media does encourage narcissistic behavior in people who don't have NPD. Narcissistic personality disorder just normal people.

Speaker 2: 2:16

I think that social media does encourage a kind of self-absorbed or self-obsessed behavior self-absorbed or self-obsessed behavior and so maybe that's where people are getting. It is why people keep throwing out the term oh, narcissist, that person's a narcissist, he's a narcissist. It's like well, people could be behaving in a certain way that mimics narcissism, but they could just be. You know, just good old, plain selfishness at times.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Yeah, yeah, there's this therapist who you know. Another reason plain selfishness, yeah times. Yeah, yeah, there's this therapist who you know. Another reason why this conversation came up there was a therapist who was talking about how there's even narcissism in the people who date narcissists. Right, there's like this idea of bringing attention to myself because I survived a narcissist relationship, and it was an interesting take. I was like that's pretty interesting in that when people share about this, they're trying to draw attention to themselves, whether it be because of pity or just maybe as a source of understanding, like, oh, because I dated a narcissist, I'll be able to teach you what to look for and what to identify, and so on. So I just thought it was an interesting take. But again, it brings up this question of how do you know if you're actually dating a narcissist and what does that actually look like? So I guess, to start off just defining the term itself, we're looking at nine traits, nine factors here that are identified for narcissists, that are identified for narcissists. So a person who displays these characteristics is most likely or can be categorized in the narcissistic personality disorder.

Speaker 1: 3:54

So the first one lacks empathy, right, the inability to recognize or identify feelings and needs of others. Okay, so thinking about a person who lacks empathy. Why are people drawn to that? Again, I'm going to get into that a little bit later, but there's this idea of a person who lacks empathy, cannot identify or affirm feelings that another person has or their needs, right On top of that. Next one is the grandiose sense of self. So there's this idea that they're the best things in sliced bread or something like that. Right so this idea of just grandiosity, I'm the best that there is, and so on.

Speaker 1: 4:32

This third one was interesting too. It's the sense of entitlement. Like, I deserve special type of treatment and you need to meet my expectations. I need to be treated differently than everyone else because I have this set of skills or this set of abilities and so on. Right, so there's a sense of entitlement that comes with. That Requires excessive admiration. So there's all these bids and fishing for compliments. So they often surround themselves with people who kind of provide that excessive admiration. Right Again, that can be the guy, it can be a girl. Again, we're talking about within a dating context, relationship context. So excessive admiration.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Number five believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high status people, right? So, again, looking at the circle that this person surrounds themselves with, use that as a way to gauge. Okay, are they also displaying the same type of characteristics and traits and are they also praising this person for the traits that they have? So you'll see those same people kind of hang around in the same circles, but that person themselves, even within that group, still believes that they are more special than everyone else. Number six they're preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty and even ideal love. So these are conversations that they're having. This is what I want, this is what I want it to look like. I can achieve this again success, power, brilliance, and so on. Number seven they take advantage of others, so they're exploitative in order to achieve their own ends.

Speaker 1: 6:19

And again, most of these things you don't see right away. Some of them are more obvious than others. Some of them you only start to see as you start to know and engage them on a more personal level. Okay, because most people kind of keep a surface level relationship with acquaintances and just people that they know or meet. Number eight envious of others, or believe that others are envious of him or her. So, again, they're always desiring what someone else has and think that other people have the same feeling towards them and, lastly, shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

Speaker 1: 6:55

So, again, these aren't things that are. These are things that are easily noticeable in your interactions with them. So you wanna take the way that I would recommend. Looking at this is look at their personal relationships, people that are close to them friends, family relationships and so on and then also look at it from a broader perspective. What do other people outside of that circle say about that person and what do they know about that person? And I think you can find some overlap with a number of these things. But, again, most of these are pretty obvious. You meet this person and you get at least four to five of these characteristics and that'll probably give you a good idea that they may have NPD. Again, we're not diagnosing people, but these are some of those identifying factors.

Speaker 2: 7:41

So let me ask you this then as you went through that list, I was thinking you know, almost all of us have exhibited some aspect of those traits at some point in our lives, like whether that's grandiose fantasies or acting haughty in some ways, maybe not exploiting other people consciously, but certainly acting in ways that are very selfish. Um, what are some others that you read at the beginning? Um, uh. Grand use of self entitlement, excessive admiration yeah, you know we've all kind of acted entitled at times or uh or wanted admiration, dreamed of having admiration.

Speaker 2: 8:23

You know there's a, there's a saying like everyone wants to be king, you know, for a day. So yeah, so like, even every person can have something like what you've read and some aspect of that. So how do you, how do we distinguish like for for our listeners out there who's maybe listening to you and checking off boxes and they're like oh no, I have NPD. How do you distinguish between a true narcissist and someone who just occasionally exhibits these traits?

Speaker 1: 8:56

Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think one of them you kind of alluded to right now is, if you're worried about some of these characteristics, you're like, oh man, do I have NPD? That's probably a. Now is, if you're worried about some of these characteristics, you're like, oh man, man, do I have NPD? That's probably a good sign because you're worried about coming off as a narcissist, and true narcissists don't really care. He'll be like, oh yeah, that's that's me, that's me to a T and, you know, continue on with their day.

Speaker 1: 9:19

But the other part of it is your interactions with these people. In general, these are more common than not. So, for example, I, you know, I had friends who you know they do something great and then they kind of may get a little puffed up and have this grandiose sense of self, or maybe they they are under stress and they start becoming unempathetic towards other people. So they treat people a little bit crappy for a while because you know they just want to get something done and whatever the case is. So there could be lack of empathy there, but that's not who they are in general, like most of your interactions with this person are positive than they are in displaying any of these traits. So the commonality again is do they treat people within their circle this way and what does it look like with the general public? I guess with people outside of that circle is another good way to kind of assess that. So I think those would be two good places to start.

Speaker 1: 10:17

What is your overall interactions with them? How do they behave? If you've noticed a pattern of behavior of these, again, it could be four or five of these. They don't have to display all of them and some of these can't even be displayed until you're in a closer relationship with them. But lacking empathy, grandiosense of self, excessive admiration, these are things that at the surface level you could kind of see. So in general, in your interactions with them, do you see these traits more often than not, and that could tell you a lot. Again, personality disorders are common behaviors, common patterns of relating to other people over an extended period of time. So you'll see within a couple of months, definitely within a year, whether or not these things are identifiable.

Speaker 2: 11:04

All right, so then let's jump to dating unless you wanted to sit something farther, okay oh yeah, let's go some stats yeah, there's some.

Speaker 1: 11:15

There's some stats here from the cleveland clinic and I think I mentioned this in the last episode that we did. But the reason why this topic of of um npd is is important is because I started to ask myself, well, how common is this problem? Like, what population, what percentage of the population actually has this as a diagnosable disorder? So Cleveland Clinic kind of did some research with this and looked at 5% of people suffer from NPD, right? So this is US data. So this is US data and it says around 75% of people who are diagnosed with this are men. So 75% men, 25% women. So what's with this discrepancy and this is one of the questions as I was preparing for this is what is that? Why is that discrepancy so high? And what you realize is that a lot of these characteristics or traits in some ways help men move through society, but at the extreme level of hurting people in the process, hurting relationships, men tend to be more independent, focused and wanting to achieve success, so they're willing to do whatever it takes to get to that point, right, so much at the expense of relationships and NPD affects relationships. So one way could be because of that, why that discrepancy is so high 75% of men and it's rewarded in a lot of ways, right, because a lot of these things the grandiose sense of self, the person who has it, who has NPD they will describe that as super confident. Right, I'm confident in myself, confident in my ability. So how do you discern and we'll get to this later how do you discern between confidence and having a grandiose sense of self? Or how do you separate confidence from having this deep um, uh, what's the word that in admiration even for your own, um, qualities and characteristics that you have? So, or even your success, what, what, what plays into that? And a lot of these things may be helpful, but one of the things that I found out even more so was these are a lot of defense mechanisms so that they don't get hurt along their journey to success and to become the man that they want to be.

Speaker 1: 13:45

So what you find is that these men have also been hurt in early childhood relationships and even in some of their adult relationships. So the only way to deal with that in some of their adult relationships so the only way to deal with that a lot of it is insecurity. So that's why they have to be the ones who are their own cheerleaders and they have to do it in such a way right. This is where the grandiose sense of self comes into play. They have to present themselves in their minds that they are the most confident, most capable, most skilled person that they know. And then they're trying to convince other people around them to also believe that. And again deals with a huge sense of insecurity. But it's one way in which they find motivation to continue to be successful. And you'll see this a lot with people who are in business, and if they are very high up on the pay scale, they're making millions of dollars. This is the way that they work through. They have to not care about how they're affecting other people, because they're only out for their own good. So there's some utility to it. But what does that actually look like in relationships? And we'll see that here in a little bit. Actually look like in relationships, and we'll see that here in a little bit.

Speaker 1: 14:56

So a study done by the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry they published this in the National Library of Medicine shows these three traits in men and two other traits in women. So three lack of empathy, sense of entitlement and exploitation. Those were three characteristics that mostly showed, or that men scored higher when it comes to displaying these characteristics For women. Interestingly enough, one of them was envy and arrogance, and again, the percentage between these is about plus minus five. Between these is about plus minus five. So, for example, for women they scored 78.4, while men scored 72. On envy and arrogance, women scored 42, and men scored 35%. So interesting how these would play a role in their relationships. But really, what you find with both of these it's a way to protect the self from being hurt, and so on.

Speaker 2: 16:00

Okay. So if narcissism or narcissistic traits are a way of protecting the self, then what is the root of narcissism? Is it nature, is it biology, or is it nurture? Is it some sort of environmental factor that drives someone to develop NPD? And if it's the latter, then what does that say about my earlier comment about social media driving people toward narcissistic behavior? Are people actually developing NPD? On a mass scale.

Speaker 1: 16:32

Yeah, I think it's both, and because one of it is you're going to have some personality traits that are going to be more prone to showing some of these behaviors right To showing a more grandiose sense of self. But the grandiose sense of self could also be the constant adoration of the parents and the constant adoration of other peers and the adoration of teachers, right. So a child starts to believe all of these things. They've been told this all their lives. Then they grew up, turn 18, 19, 20, go out into the real world and have that belief system right. So anything that goes against that is a shock to them. That's why one of the other characteristics for those who struggle with NPD or have NPD is they don't take criticism well, and again, a big part of that could be because the nurture part of their upbringing was always positive. This is why we need that balance of okay, I'm encouraging you. But also this needs to be corrected.

Speaker 1: 17:37

And often those who have this inflated sense of self, they haven't been corrected by their peers, by their parents, by their teachers. Because they have such a great skill at something right, they do something so well and that's the thing that they're praised for. So it would make sense in a lot of ways why they become the way they become when that's the thing that's been highlighted in their life, right? So someone who's very skilled at working with people or who has a I don't know able to use technology well is good at business, whatever the case is, if that's something that's been highlighted in their lives by all these important people in their lives, then it would make sense why they would have such a high belief in that about themselves, right? So any critique, any criticism, anything that shoots down that image that they've created or that others have created for them, that hurts. That hurts the self-esteem, that hurts the ego, and the way to protect against that is nope. I got to believe what I've been told my whole life and that's the only way to survive and push forward.

Speaker 2: 18:42

So that form of narcissism comes from? Like an over-receiving or, I guess, receiving too much praise when you're younger, not enough criticism? What about those who maybe they lack a parental figure in their life, maybe there's a father who abandoned them or something like that? Do some people develop NPD? Because it's like a compensation for what they lacked when they were younger.

Speaker 1: 19:12

Yeah, that's a great point, Tim. You do see that a lot right, they have to. It becomes a survival instinct. It's not going to help you survive if you're putting yourself down, if the only people in your life have not communicated the things that you're or have communicated to you, the things that you're not good at, right. So if they say, well, you never do this right, you never do that right, at some point there's something that triggers in the person where it's like I can't live like this. So they go to the other extreme and everything is emphasized in the positive, to the point where it starts to change how they think about themselves, how they think about people, right. So again, as they develop this new belief in themselves, in their confidence in their skills, in their abilities, then they start to believe that so much that now anything that anyone else says about them doesn't matter, right. So now they're just protecting how they feel, because they felt crappy for such a long time because of what was said about them. Now they just enjoy the feeling of confidence and belief in their skills that no one's going to move them from that. Right, it's very hard to move someone from something that's protected them and that's worked out for them and I think that's the thing that's, from a cultural perspective, is also influencing people is that we're seeing narcissistic behaviors be rewarded.

Speaker 1: 20:34

For example, one of the episodes that we did before was with prosperity teachers or popular pastors and so on, this charismatic type movement, right, the reason why other pastors or other churches are doing that is because they're seeing that it produces results, it brings people into the church and it brings a sense of status to the church. So if something's working and it's being rewarded, it makes it easier for us to kind of imitate those behaviors. And I think when we're seeing these narcissistic behaviors in other people and it's being rewarded with success or promotion or money or relationships like, people start imitating that because they think that's what brings the reward. So for these people who grew up and weren't necessarily hyped up and highlighted their skills and their abilities, they have to create a new sense of self and if that's working for them and if that's creating the life that they want, why would I give that up? Right, it wouldn't make sense until they hit these barriers in relationships, right? Which brings us to the question so why are people entering relationships with narcissists?

Speaker 1: 21:54

What is it about the narcissist that draws people in, right, and I think one of the characteristics that we can look at is this charismatic way in relating to people, right? Earlier, one of the characteristics that we read was taking advantage of others to achieve his or her own needs. So a charismatic person can be very exploitative of others in praising them and giving them what they want, giving them what they feel that they deserve, in order to eventually get something out of them right, out of the feel that they deserve, in order to eventually get something out of them right Out of the people that they're under them or the relationship that they're looking for. Right? So if it's sex, they're going to give the girl whatever they want until they eventually get that reward in a sense. Right, so they're using people for their own benefit. But it feels good when someone is praising you and they're really giving you all this attention. That feels good. So I wonder if that's one piece that draws people to these narcissistic type of people, and I mentioned earlier in the episode another piece could be this idea of surviving these difficult people right.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Again, there was another therapist and she made this comment about there's narcissism in dating narcissists. Right, the person who dates the narcissist goes back with a story and talks about how much of a badge of honor it is to date a narcissist and survive them right, survive the whole dating relationship, like they were treating me like this, like that. And the question she says is well, what made you stay in that relationship for so long or why weren't you able to identify those things beforehand? And a big part of this we confuse confidence with arrogance. Arrogance is one of the characteristics of a narcissist, right? So when someone doesn't understand the difference between those two, it could be this person's so confident and really it's arrogance. And how do we discern between those two? And I think one of the things that I was able to identify was confidence is a growth from the previous self, so meaning that the person is measuring themselves with how they were three, four, five months ago. Arrogance is this comparison with others who are below them. So I'm much better than and they're making this comparison with other people. Confidence is kind of like oh, I've grown in this area, so it's a comparison to the former self. So I think that's one way to look at that as well. And again, these aren't things that you see when you first meet people. It's as you start to get to know people, you start to notice little differences.

Speaker 1: 24:55

But again, you asked the question earlier how do you know if it's NPD or if it's just they're displaying this trait? That seems to line up with one of these characteristics. And the key factor to look at is, in general, in your overall interactions with this person how have they behaved, and if, every once in a while, you see them become a little bit selfish or talking in a grandiose way or lacking empathy, whatever the case is, you can tell that that's not usually how they are, so something else is going on that could be causing that type of behavior. For the narcissist, this is their general way of operating in the world. Again, part of it defense mechanism. Another part of it is, um, that's just the personality that they've had to develop in order to move in life and and move forward and succeed. So I think that's one of them.

Speaker 1: 25:48

Um, what was the other question I had here? Are people becoming narcissists because that is what is being rewarded by culture? So what does that mean? Are people becoming narcissists because that is what's being rewarded by culture, if you're confident or if you're arrogant and you treat people in a certain way and that's helping you move ahead in your career, then why not? That's kind of like the mentality is why wouldn't I do something that helps me move forward in my career, but you're doing that at the expense of your relationships. You're doing that at the expense of hurting someone else that you may or may not care for, that at the expense of hurting someone else that you may or may not care for. So even us as a culture, I think we tend to praise those who have a sense of charisma and confidence that we feel like we lack.

Speaker 1: 26:46

So there's this other piece, another factor that I wanted to look at the successful person. Okay, so success is good, but one of the potential traits that it shows of narcissism is a grandiose sense of self, or this preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited power, brilliance and beauty. So someone who's successful may have these other factors as part of it, but not necessarily. Again, someone who's successful isn't automatically narcissistic. So you got to look are they successful and are they displaying this grandiose sense of self and are they preoccupied with power, brilliance and money? And lastly, I think there's this other piece of independence People who are highly independent.

Speaker 1: 27:39

We see that as a good thing. Okay, they don't depend on anyone else. They're kind of paving their own way. They're doing what they need to do, but if in that process, they don't have empathy for others or show arrogance in the process, okay, then that may give us another some signs of narcissistic personality disorder, okay. Now, all of this that we've been talking about is to lead up to the question are you dating a narcissist? And the idea behind that is is it possible that we're confusing these positive traits right, confidence, successful, independence with narcissistic personality disorders, and can people differentiate between those two? Now, I guess a question for you, tim as I've shared or laid out those two things has it become more clear in here's what's narcissistic and here's what's confidence, success, independence and so on? Is there a clear line or do you think there's still some some overlap?

Speaker 2: 28:51

Well, I think.

Speaker 1: 28:51

I think, some overlap.

Speaker 2: 28:53

Well, I think there's still some overlap, because I'm thinking of a few individuals that I'm convinced are narcissists, that I know, and there's just a way that they act that gives it away, um, and so I think what would help is, when we get into this question just so we're not accused of clickbait, let's get into the question about is someone dating a narcissist? How do you know? Or how they maybe talk about other people Like I guess what are some really quick, easy things to recognize that are like yep, that's a narcissist. I do think you're right, though, that people can look at confidence and think, oh, that person's arrogant. Or they can look at success and think, well, they only got there by abusing other people.

Speaker 2: 29:54

So, yeah, I think you're right there, that people, as I said at the beginning of the episode, people just throw out the term narcissism nowadays as a blanket thing for anything and everything, and that's not really that helpful. Certainly there's people who are arrogant and use other people to their ends. It doesn't make them a narcissist. It could make them a jerk.

Speaker 2: 30:20

Yeah exactly A jerk isn't necessarily a narcissist, so yeah, so I guess with people in dating relationships, if they're really kind of concerned about like am I involved with the narcissist, or perhaps even in a marriage relationship, what are some signs, I guess, that the other person is narcissistic or maybe has NPD.

Speaker 1: 30:46

Yeah, that's good, that's good. So if we go through these different characteristics, I think I'll start to flesh out a little bit more. So, for example, lacking empathy is probably the clearest one. When two people are in a relationship, there's a sense of care and wanting to understand another person's feelings and wanting to see how they can meet their needs. Right, we see ourselves as complementary, like I want to be able to meet your needs and you would meet my needs. So it's mutual. It's a mutual commitment to wanting to meet the other person's needs and to understand their feelings.

Speaker 1: 31:19

If you're dating a narcissist, there's this idea of I don't care what you need, here's what I need. I don't care how you feel, here's how I feel. And again, in relationships it's not that it happens once, twice, three times, it's that this is the common theme in the relationship, right? The common theme is that this is the common theme in the relationship, right? The common theme is that this person only cares about what they need. They only care about what they want and how they feel, but when I share what I'm needing or feeling, they don't care, right? So that's probably a very common one to address. Again, think about it in length of time. Is this the most common behavior every time throughout your relationship? Is this the theme of the relationship? I think that can help out a little bit In a behavioral standpoint.

Speaker 1: 32:04

One of the and this a lot of people who have dated narcissists. They describe this behavior. When walking in public, the person, the narcissist, walks a few steps ahead as a way of creating the sense of I'm the important one, you're the support and you don't deserve to kind of be in the spotlight. So they'll see. And you may see that if you want to go and just kind of go to the mall and people watch, right, you can kind of see these things kind of play out. Again, it's not as common as we think, but if you see it, you know it and if you see it, you know it and if you feel it, it's this idea of this person's the one who needs to have the spotlight. The other person is just kind of the support system, right, the one who's following and so on. So in that sense again, that grandiose sense of self, or even the need for excessive admiration, you'll see that a lot when there's a couple and you have one who's praising the other person for how great they are as a as a boyfriend, as a husband, or as a wife, as a girlfriend, and the other person doesn't say anything in return. I don't know if you've ever been around relationships like that, where there's one who you know I won the lottery with this person like they're the best and so on, and you see no response from the other partner, like it's just quiet. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1: 33:18

So kind of excessive admiration, but also the idea that they're special, right, like they're the special one in the relationship. And if people can kind of see that there's a clear distinction when they're around other people, as who is supposed to be the star and who is just kind of the support, right, so they want to make it very clear to themselves and to other people that they're the important one in the relationship, and it's very noticeable. So it's not subtle, it's very noticeable. So that's another way in which you can tell that as well.

Speaker 1: 33:55

Sense of entitlement that's a big one, right. They deserve treatment, not just from the person that they're dating but also from other people around them. And if they as a couple receive special treatment from others, it's because of that, the narcissist, that they're receiving that service and that admiration, and they'll make it a point to make sure that the other person in the relationship knows why they're receiving that praise, like, oh, this is because of me, because of all that I've done, or because of how I served them, or because of what I did here, right, they make it very clear to that person what their role in the relationship is. So it's very much like this and we're not talking about biblical roles. I mean, it is a distinct separation of I'm here, you're here and that's. That's just the way that it is and it'll always be like that so those?

Speaker 2: 34:43

so those list people in our show, fans who are just listening and not watching the video. Can you explain what you did with your hands? Oh, like having one one hand way up high, one way down low so the narcissist is like I'm way up high and my partner's way down low.

Speaker 1: 35:02

Way down low and it's not like this, right, so I'm barely kind of creating the space between my hands, but it's noticeable, so it's, you know, and he makes sure that other people know that he is the star and she is not, or vice versa bad news, what?

Speaker 2: 35:31

what advice do you have for someone who might be? Let's start with a dating relationship. What advice do you have? Because maybe that's easier with dating, um, and how to handle that. But what about marriage? Like somebody might be married to a narcissistic person, what, so let's start with a dating one. What advice do you have for them? And then, what advice do you have for someone who's like I think I married a narcissist?

Speaker 1: 35:49

Yeah, when you mentioned that, the one with the dating I'm reminded of. I think it was Benjamin Franklin. He said keep your eyes wide open before marriage and half shut afterwards. So this idea of pay attention to everything before you get married and then afterwards learn to let go of a couple of things that are going to get on your nerves right. And I think in dating it's we get excited when we see that person who's very confident, very accomplished, very well put together, and we just want to start the relationship. So there's no filtering our process, it's just like they're great, they're attractive, they seem well put together, they're independent, all these different things again, for both men and women and we just want to get into the relationship. And you get into the relationship and you haven't filtered out all these other things that you're seeing and you figure out, maybe three, six, nine months down the road, that all of these traits are starting to become evident to you and it makes it harder to get out of a situation like that Because now especially, there's been physical intimacy, now you're attached to this person and I think that's what makes it hard for people to leave relationships like this. And I'm trying to think back to him at some of our episodes.

Speaker 1: 37:09

I don't think we talked about the impact of premarital sex, but one of the things I have seen a lot in people that I counsel it's they may date someone for a month and if there was no physical intimacy they hurt a little bit but they're able to move on. But those who have had sex before or during that time they have such a much harder time letting go of that person again because it's created a bond. And I think that's what happens in this relationship is that all these things are good. They seem very, very great at the beginning. If they're confident, they make you feel good, so it makes it easy to jump into a relationship. But if you see these characteristics like again, look at their close relationships, look at it from a broader perspective of what other people are saying or thinking about that person, and then see, check in on your experiences with that person.

Speaker 1: 38:01

Okay, what am I seeing? And just paying attention to all of these different things. How do they talk about money? How do they talk about success? How do they talk about other people? Right, and then you'll start to see, right, this preoccupation, maybe with oh you know, I want to be the best the CEO of said company and I want to make millions and I want to do this. I want to do that. Okay, just take note. Okay, good, how do they talk about other people? Are they talking about other people in a way where they're putting them down in order to make themselves look better in your eyes? That could be another factor, right, are they only talking about themselves? Do you ever see them praise other people and lift other people up in front of you and even behind their backs? Right, where they say good things about other people, right?

Speaker 1: 38:53

So all of these are just things that you start to figure out as you get to know the person more and more. So you just got to observe, take note, observe, take note and again, with time, you start to see the patterns. A couple of months, I think, two, three months you can start seeing the patterns Again. That's depending how much you see them, how often you hang around them, around their friends and so on. You start to see these behaviors a lot more Again, spend a lot of time with that person and just take note. So for those who are dating, it's before you start dating this person. All of these things are very positive. These characteristics may seem positive on the surface. But again, take your time, slow it down, take note and you'll start to see these actual characteristics. If they are narcissistic, you will see these things come up within a couple months.

Speaker 2: 39:41

Okay, so let's jump to the marriage question. All of those traits now in a marriage relationship. What advice do you have for someone who feels like maybe I married a narcissist?

Speaker 1: 39:53

Yeah, yeah, I mean that one. It's a. It's a lot harder, it's much more complicated, because what do you do? Really? The line is, do they become abusive? Right, that's, that's really the key thing, because, you know, some people are people who are narcissists. They're just annoying, right. That's really the key thing, at least for me, because some people are people who are narcissists. They're just annoying, right. They're annoying to be around and it's kind of like I just can't stand being around you, like you're saying all these things about other people. So they're probably receiving that in some way, shape or form in the marriage context, so, okay, so it's kind of like just those things that are annoying. But another characteristic of a narcissist is that they will become verbally, emotionally, even physically abusive, right. So at that point, that's really the line.

Speaker 1: 40:36

I think, where I drive was like, okay, um, you're not safe here. Like what needs to happen here? You know, do you guys need to go to counseling? And again, go to counseling together and discuss this. But again, withists, they're able to manipulate the counselor unless the counselor is experienced in working with narcissists. And I think that's starting to become a niche in the counseling field where people want to learn more about narcissism. So they can deal with narcissists within the counseling setting. So they can deal with narcissists within the counseling setting Because, again, if they're very charismatic and if they are exploitative of other people am I saying that right? Exploitative Sounds right. If they're doing that with other people, then it's likely that they're going to do that with the counselor. But the counselor, who is well-informed on how narcissists behave, they'll be able to catch that and redirect the conversation within counseling, right.

Speaker 1: 41:32

But again, any personality disorder you're not just NPD, but most personalities are just difficult because it becomes a part of who they are. That's just how they learn to operate and again, to break down these self-defense mechanisms for them. I mean, that's a lot of work. It needs to be done at the individual level and also at the relational level, and it's hard. And how long would that narcissist stay within the counseling setting? I don't know, right. So my line is has he become abusive? Right, and typically it's going to hinge a little bit on emotional and verbal abuse. So if they're degrading you, they're putting you down, they do it in front of other people, right? And this is where we start to pay attention. So if you're in groups and typically narcissists will avoid big groups. But if you're in group settings, pay attention to that.

Speaker 1: 42:26

All these little signs that I've been mentioning of how they treat their partner, how they treat other people. Just have it as a little flag. Oh, that's interesting. Check in with the person. And again, one thing to take note of as well is this also happens to the men. So typically I'm speaking about it from how men treat their girlfriends or their wives. But also there's the other one. It's a little more subtle because it's not as common with women to mistreat their husbands. So just something to be mindful of how do they treat them? How do they talk about them? Those are just some of the indicators that you can pay attention as a friend, as the body of Christ, to ask and be willing to go there if you see these red flags, so seek out church leadership, seek out counseling.

Speaker 1: 43:19

And again, the final line for me is, once they become emotionally, verbally abusive and physically abusive, that's a really bad sign. Yeah, I would say, talk to your pastor, see what the guidance is after that and a counselor. Actually, I would say this if it's become physically abusive, I already know it's been emotionally and verbally abusive, right, because that's the last barrier that people reach. The emotional verbal abuse is a little bit difficult to define or to describe. But if someone has already got to the physically abusive piece, I know that the other two have happened already. So it's just kind of like the build up.

Speaker 2: 43:56

That's good advice.

Speaker 1: 43:59

Yeah, all right?

Speaker 2: 44:00

Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Yeah, yeah, hopefully this was helpful, guys, and hopefully you're not dating a nurse. And yeah, yeah, hopefully this was helpful, guys, and hopefully you're not dating a nurse and hopefully, as you are seeing these things, that you can catch these things beforehand if you're thinking about dating um and if you are in a relationship like that, you know, seek help, ask questions and um, you know, we'll see how we can help with that. But uh, yeah, thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next time.