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Psych and Theo Podcast
Welcome to the "Psych and Theo Podcast". We’re your hosts, Sam and Tim. Join us as we tackle cultural issues by providing insightful discussions from both a theological and psychological perspective.
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 48 - The Alien Gospel: When UFOs Become Religion
A strange new spirituality is emerging where UFOs aren't just objects in the sky but the center of belief systems that rival traditional religion. What happens when people trade their faith for cosmic encounters?
Tim and Sam dive deep into the unsettling world of UFO religiosity, exploring how extraterrestrial encounters have transformed from curiosities into full-blown spiritual movements. The phenomenon has surprising depth—complete with prophets who claim to "download" advanced information, healing miracles attributed to alien beings, and theological messaging that directly challenges Christian beliefs about Jesus.
The podcast examines why these movements have such powerful appeal. When materialistic worldviews fail to provide meaning, UFO spirituality steps in with a cosmic narrative about humanity's origins and destiny. For those who've had unexplainable experiences, it offers validation when traditional religious communities might dismiss them as crazy or attention-seeking.
Most troubling for Christians is the specific anti-biblical messaging that often accompanies these experiences. Many contactees return with suspiciously similar claims that "Jesus was just an alien representative" or that "all religions are equal paths to enlightenment"—messaging that appears designed to undermine orthodox faith.
The hosts suggest a balanced approach: neither dismiss these experiences outright nor abandon biblical discernment. They recommend resources like Diana Pasulka's "American Cosmic," Jacques Vallée's "Messengers of Deception," and Michael Heiser's documentary work for Christians seeking to understand this phenomenon through a biblical lens.
Have you or someone you know had an unexplainable encounter? Share your thoughts or questions about this fascinating intersection of the paranormal and spirituality.
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All right, welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast. Sam and Tim here, and we just finished an episode on UFOs in the Bible and today we're going to discuss UFO. Religiosity, like this, has become such an issue that people have made religions out of these different elements having to do with UFOs and, I'm guessing, aliens and a bunch of other things. And again, tim has piqued my interest into this new world of I don't know what would you call it, tim?
Speaker 2:UFOlogy, paranormal, the study of UFOs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but it actually does. The weird stuff. The weird stuff. The weird stuff that's how we'll title these two episodes the Weird Stuff. But there is a lot of application to make Christians laugh, because these are things that are being brought up in different circles and it can impact your faith, and one of the points made in the last episode was that this shouldn't consume your life. It's interesting, it makes you think and even moves you to think critically about these things, but it's another avenue to maybe help people out of these different worldviews that may be damaging their faith so much so that they can make this a religion in their own lives. So that's on the episode for today, but before we start, as always, we want you guys to follow us on Instagram that is a psych underscore and underscore Theo and also on Facebook, and we're still on Twitter too, right, tim?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I believe so. Brian's being faithful posting episodes.
Speaker 1:So we have that Subscribe to the podcast and again, as always, send us a message if you have any topic recommendations and we'll do our best to address those. And so today we will be discussing UFO religiosity and Tim. These UFO things have become a religion in and of themselves and it sounds like that is growing into a lot of different sects. It almost sounds very new agey you mentioned in the last episode, like it's this collection of different parts of religion and it just makes whatever you know, whatever you want it to be. Does that sound accurate to what it is?
Speaker 2:No, there's definitely a lot of overlap between the New Age movement and the New Age. Goes by various titles now, but essentially it's New Age. There's a lot of overlap between that and the UFO genre. The UFO genre I think it's a mix of the modern scientific worldview with very old thinking and religious beliefs about the meaning of life and transcendence and all these things.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, the UFO phenomenon really started. It really kicked off in the late 40s and then the early 50s when the Roswell incident happened that was 1947 and then after that there was just an explosion of reports of seeing UFOs. Now some of that like maybe a lot of that can be attributed to just popular hysteria. People think they see things in the skies fake videos, hoaxes, all that stuff but not all of it can be explained that way. But essentially a lot of it kicked off after the roswell incident and since then it has sparked this massive genre of research into ufos and aliens and are we alone in the universe? And questions like that. And fast forward to the modern age, there is a quasi-religious movement around the subject of UFOs and aliens and UAPs, such that there are people who think that the aliens are here to usher us into a new age or they're here to guide us on our path to development. So they're ascribing at least moral authority and technological superiority to some sort of alien race. People will explain this differently. They think maybe they're extraterrestrials from another planet, but the more popular hypothesis now is that these beings, these alien beings, are get this, interdimensional beings, and we have to do that. We have to do protocols to contact. They need to be contacted in very certain particular ways. Perhaps if you do drugs, psychedelics, you might be able to contact the aliens. Yeah, yeah, talk to them. Now this all sounds hokey Like. Is this just cuckoo crazy stuff? And perhaps some of it is, but it's not as crazy as you might think if you understand the spiritual worldview in which christianity like, I think that christianity can make sense of. So essentially, around ufos, uaps. The modern age of naturalism and materialism has failed to give people a true sense of meaning and purpose in life, and so this idea that there's an alien race or races that are out there that may have even seeded planet earth, and that they explain the emergence of intelligent beings such as ourselves on planet earth, that they may be our progenitors, they may be the ones who we always thought was God, but it's really maybe just aliens that are here guiding us and giving us help and information, and they're now going to usher us into a new age.
Speaker 2:There's a documentary series on Netflix that everyone should watch, I think as a Christian. It's called Encounters and it's all about aliens and it's about modern stories of aliens and how people have encountered them. It's almost like an Unsolved Mysteries series. Yeah, why I say Christians should go watch this is because real and for failing to listen to people who have experienced UFO abductions and encounters. So the first couple episodes are about people who were formerly Christians who have an encounter of some sort and then they're not listened to by their Christian pastors and friends and they just dismiss them and they feel very alienated by that and they feel alone and so they run to like something has to explain this experience and so they end up running to something else that will give them that experience. Maybe that's psychics, maybe that's the UFO community and they essentially are no longer Christians. Then at the end of this series, the very last episode, I remember watching this I was on a plane flying somewhere and I got to the end of the series and I was like I was just like squirming in my seat because I was so like frustrated and like I can't believe they were doing this.
Speaker 2:They essentially were like the aliens are here to usher us into a new age. Like the aliens are here to usher us into a new age, they're here to guide us on our path of self discovery, and things like that this particular episode was covering the fukushima meltdown, the nuclear power plant in japan, okay, and how there was. There was all kinds of weird phenomena around that meltdown, and so the hypothesis was well, the aliens notice that we have nuclear power and we have the power to destroy ourselves, and they really care about our planet and us taking care of the planet, and so they're here to help us figure that out. Yeah, so that? So the thesis of the show is that christians got it wrong. Aliens are real, they're not nefarious, they're not deceptive in any way, and they're here to guide us, and we've really just misunderstood them all along.
Speaker 1:And that's wild, and how do they corroborate that? How do they make that an actual argument for people to listen to them like, is it just eyewitness experience, or I mean, what is that?
Speaker 2:well, you have to understand. So people, again, people are leaving the metaphysical worldview of naturalism and materialism. They're putting that aside and they are now embracing forms of spiritualism, new age beliefs. So when it comes to alien experiences, it's essentially that they've experienced something. They don't feel the need to give you evidence of why that's real. They're like I've experienced it. I know my experience.
Speaker 1:That's what we'd call lived experience.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, know, not so much like so. A lived experience is like an interpretation of what it's like to be me in the world. But an experience like this is I was in my room and I saw something. Something was done to me. I have marks on my body to prove it. I was in one place and then hours later I was in another place, inexplicably, or I had this terrible experience where I was abducted. They did horrible things to me and I have trauma, ptsd from it. So these are real things that people recount and recall. So having to corroborate that try to make some sort of scientific argument for it, they're like I don't feel the need to do that because I know what happened to me.
Speaker 1:But doesn't that make it seem more skeptical for the people, right? Because then anyone could just say anything. So they certainly so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that is the case. There are people who are attention seekers, who just want attention, and that's certainly the case, but there's so many accounts of this and there are some people who are hesitant to tell, and that's an indication that something really did happen to them they're hesitant to tell their story, and that only through because you're gonna be seen as crazy or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah or something happens, and there's multiple witnesses. There's a really famous case in south africa of school children, and a harvard researcher went down there to document this case, and there's a whole nother side story with him in particular. But there's a really famous case of these schoolchildren in South Africa who all see something on the playground. Something happens to them. Now their stories are conflicting. They recall different things. They recall some similar things, some different things, so it's hard to know what exactly happened, but it's around this phenomenon that something weird or paranormal occurred that freaked them out.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the school by name, but it's a really famous case if you look it up. There's lots of cases like that of multiple eyewitnesses, people seeing something. Now, what has happened, though, is there's been a quasi-religious movements around this of people ascribing meaning and transcendence and purpose to knowing the aliens and contacting them in some way, like it's their worldview that gives them meaning and purpose yeah, I mean it becomes an identity almost, because if it's attached to meaning and purpose and the afterlife in a sense yeah, I guess I'm wondering that.
Speaker 1:So you were talking about the religiosity piece of it and maybe you have this for later in the episode, guess I'm wondering that. So we're talking about the religiosity piece of it and maybe you have this for later in the episode. But I'm wondering what their thoughts of the afterlife is. If this is their religion and they're attaching it to these alien encounters or experiences, there has to be a belief somewhere in there about what do they think about the afterlife? Do you think they're gonna be joined to these aliens, or yeah, or yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious about that, especially if some of them were former christians I guess that kind of depends on the individual, because we're speaking really generally here, okay, because new age philosophy is so intertwined with this topic.
Speaker 2:You see a lot of people believing in reincarnation or something like that, or or when I die here, my spirit goes to another dimension and I live there and on, and on and on and on. You might see things like that. So there's a couple of books I want to point people to that are really, really good on this topic. Both these books are by a researcher named Diana Pasolka. She's a professor of religious studies I think it's at North Carolina or UNC, chapel Hill, I can't remember where. But her first book is called American Cosmic and it's a subtitle of something like UFOs and Religion and it's about this quasi-religious movement that sprang up in the late 20th century America around UFOs and the fascination with it, not just with individuals but with governments like the US government. She goes into great detail how even the US government isn't quite sure what's going on D research, on advanced technology that they don't want to disclose to the world. So there's some aspects of that. But there's other parts of the government that are really intrigued by what's happening. They don't quite understand.
Speaker 2:And there's a character in this book that she tags along with. His pseudonym is Tyler D, but he's a real individual and he's got some crazy access levels in the government, but essentially she follows him around and he tells her all kinds of things, discloses all kinds of things to her about what they know and what they don't know about what's going on, because even the US government will send rockets up into space and they will observe things flying around their rockets that they can't explain Really. Yeah, oh yeah. But there's also people who this particular individual in the book named Tyler D. He seems to have an uncanny ability to download information through some unknown source. Now they call it downloading, but essentially think of it as almost like ESP, extrasensory perception. Yeah, do you know what automatic writing is?
Speaker 1:Automatic writing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, okay, that's an occult practice. We won't get into that too much, but automatic writing was a way in which occultists would channel information from an unknown source and they would write it on a piece of paper so that they would surrender control of themselves to whatever force was out there to give them information, and then they would write it out on a piece of paper. So it's either Christian science I think it was Christian science or Seventh-day Adventism. Okay, their founders, lng White, was Seventh-day Adventism and Mary Baker, eddy, was the founder of Christian science. I think it was Eddy who basically wrote all of her books on Christian science through automatic writing. So basically, she's like getting all of this information from a non-material source and she's writing it. She's like not even in control and she's writing this down. Yeah, sounds strange, sound really weird and nefarious right.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if you remember this or not, tim, or if you've seen this movie, but in transformers I think it's the second one basically that's what's happening with child above, like, I mean, he, he's being infiltrated, I guess, by this alien or whatever, and he's just writing everything frantically down on a piece of paper so it sounds like that's kind of the same idea here yeah, that would be an instance of automatic writing okay so this, this guy in this book, american Cosmic named Tyler D he doesn't do automatic writing, but he has this.
Speaker 2:He's always had this ability is what he said. Where he does this pro, he calls it a protocol. It's not like an occultic practice, but he does this protocol in the mornings where he drinks a lot of water, he sits in the sun and he sets himself up basically to receive information and then he just has all what he calls a download of information. And what's wild is that this guy is a super genius. He has all kinds of patents for advanced things.
Speaker 1:So he has like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's very strange things going on and what else explains that is there.
Speaker 1:Are there other potential explanations for that?
Speaker 2:like, I mean, he could be just be a super genius, right, or or have that, I don't know if extra well, if he, if he was, if he was the only one that that happened to, maybe, but there are other people like that too okay who they say they receive information somewhere outside of them.
Speaker 1:That explains things to them because the same capacity or different levels? I'm guessing different levels, yeah, different levels like yeah, she has.
Speaker 2:She has a few examples. Diana has a second book called encounters. The subtitle is called experiences with non-human intelligences and she each chapter is a different person who has experiences with a non-human intelligence. She's very disciplined in how she says that because she's a researcher. Yeah, she tries not to draw conclusions, even though she has her own worldview. She's a Catholic. So one chapter is about a guy who claims to experience the Archangel Michael. Another chapter is about a woman who claims to download information from some source and she can understand really complex problems like physics and mathematics and things like that.
Speaker 1:Where does it all go with?
Speaker 2:UFOs. Is that the connection? Is that, in the modern worldview, where people are observing aerial phenomenon and they are receiving all this information and there's government disclosures like even the government doesn't know what's going on, they admit it People are trying to make sense of all of this to say the aliens are finally here. The aliens are the ones doing this, the aliens are giving us information, the aliens are helping us. We need to make contact with the aliens because the aliens are like our big brothers. Do you see how this religiosity is forming around the aliens and ufos? Yeah, yeah, but as a christian, your spidey senses might already be going off that right. This doesn't sound all that good yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, even like when you mentioned, you know, the idea of someone meeting the archangel, did you say michael? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:so even things like that, like okay, is that still a thing? And and I think from our previous episode you said I think the capability is still there the question is how do you verify that that's happening? Yeah, exactly, if I'm doing it correctly, it's more so. It's an experience that the person is sharing with other people, and you could choose to believe it or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So some of these things you just have to take with a grain of salt as, like, this person is sharing their experience. We don't really have much to go on beyond that. I think in some sense you can judge these things by the fruit that they produce. Yeah, we can get into that in later episodes. But if someone is like, if someone says I went up and I hung out with the aliens, I was abducted and they've come down and they've given me a special message for humanity and now everyone needs to listen to me, let's pump the brakes on that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's others that they say that they have experiences Maybe they're not so pleasant, maybe they're quite dramatic, and this person this goes for a lot of different things like this where, if something happens that's unexpected, that lends credibility to the person's experience. Yeah, expecting that's like, okay, there's credibility that maybe there's something there, maybe something did actually happen. There's a couple of instances of that in the, in the ufo space as well, where, yeah, something like there's examples of christians who have these kind of encounters and some of them they kind of realize what's going on and it's quite spiritual in nature and they rebuke it in the name of Jesus and it goes away. Others have almost like a battle, you know, with these beings like a physical struggle or like a spiritual struggle to get out of that situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really, it's a really strange space, and so I think the last episode I ended with this scenario where if you're a pastor or just someone, a Christian, and another brother or sister comes to you, this close to you, they share. I've had that experience, this happened to me, and I would say this one it's likely traumatic for them. This is like if it did happen. It's likely a traumatic experience that they don't really want to tell to a lot of people. So, as a Christian, I would say don't immediately dismiss that. Yeah, because it could actually be a legitimate experience that they've had.
Speaker 2:Now, could it be an hallucination? Sure. Could it be epilepsy? Sure. Could it be the pepperoni pizza and a bad dream? Sure, but not all cases are going to be like that. Yeah, and as christians, we need to be informed of what's going on in this space and not just dismiss it as, oh, it's all a bunch of hokey, fake stuff and people are crazy and they're making it all up, but they want to believe this stuff. Now I would venture say, if you pastor a church of a few thousand people, the chances of there being someone in your congregation that has had one of these experiences is really high.
Speaker 1:Really. So how, yeah, I mean, how common is this?
Speaker 2:I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it's quite. It's more common than what we might think. It's more. For instance, it's more common not necessarily abductions, but seeing something, witnessing something in the sky, hearing something, and then, of course, encountering in some way. Again, you have to weed through how many of these are wishful thinking, make believe, hoaxes. You just you have to use your discernment. Yeah, that's, don't believe everything you hear, but sometimes there's going to be legitimate experiences and, uh, this is where I think we can get into, like the Christian worldview. You know, my view on this is that this is deeply spiritual. The whole phenomenon is deeply spiritual and what's going on is demonic in nature and the phenomenon that people are witnessing are manifestations of spiritual realities that don't have our best interests in mind.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that? Don't have our best interests in mind.
Speaker 2:Well, for instance okay, so Jacques Vallée, I mentioned him in the last episode. What do you mean by that Don? That have formed around the UFO subject People trying to make contact with these beings, trying to talk to them or claiming to receive messages from the beings. But the phenomenon that people describe firsthand accounts of encounters that they've had is so contradictory, it's so variegated. There's not a consistent core experience Like. There's not like.
Speaker 2:Put it this way If you can have a hundred people come to you and they they're all describing what it was like to go to the zoo and see the lions at the zoo, if you got a hundred accounts of that, you could start to piece together the core experience of what it's like to go see the lions at the zoo. Not every experience is going to be exactly the same, but you could piece together the core elements of that. Like the lions are at this part of the zoo and they look like this and when they roar it sounds like this. You get what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. But with the UFO genre the experiences are so variegated that it's it's hard to actually put down what is a core experience of a UFO encounter, even the messages that these alien beings give to people is so contradictory, like even the accounts that seem to be verified, like this person actually experienced something.
Speaker 2:One person says the aliens are the palladians from this planet. And no, they're this from this planet or no, they're from another dimension, and sometimes they hurt people, sometimes they don't, sometimes they're immaterial, sometimes they're not, sometimes they're mean, sometimes they're nice. It's all over the place. And so the the title of his book, messengers of of Deception, indicates that, whatever is happening here, these entities aren't interested in giving us the truth. They're not actually interested in disclosing to us what their true nature is. They're not interested in being found out.
Speaker 2:To put it another way, yeah, so just that. That's what I mean by these beings. If they're demonic in nature, they're not going to have your best interest, they're not going to have our best interest at heart, and they're quite content with people forming religions around the aliens. Yeah, that's especially. There is a subset of ufo encounters where people come back with messaging, where they receive a message from the aliens, like I've alluded to, and that message is typically something like all religions are the same and we all just need to get along. Or Jesus and Mohammed and Moses, they were all like, connected to the aliens. Jesus was really just a higher ascented spiritual master, you know. So that they're messaging something specifically about Jesus, typically, of who he was or wasn't, that's a little demonic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, michael Heiser has a documentary on YouTube about this. He's a disciplined researcher. He debunks some popular myths about UFOs. But then, after doing all this debunking, he gets down to the core experience, like the core kernel of like these experiences, where there's theological messaging going on, and he says that's the subset of these experiences that Christians should really focus on. The other subsets are like, maybe the government's doing something and they don't want to be found out, or maybe there's just hoaxes over here that we don't need to pay attention to, but the ones where people are claiming to have some quasi spiritual experience with the aliens and the aliens give them worldview information. We really need to hone in on that and be discerning about what the aliens are saying, because they're probably not really aliens. To summarize that, that point yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So let me just give some recommendations. One American cosmic by Diana Pasoka. I mentioned that her second book is called encounters. Both are really good books. I've read them both. Another book on my reading list for this year messengers of deception by Jacques Vallee. And then there's a podcast series from the cultish podcast Really good podcast, yeah, but this it's a 10 part series called alien revelations. It's. It's a phenomenal series you can just listen to it as you drive or go on your runs or whatever, and they do stay deep, dive into this subject and it's a really, really good series. So like I've only talked like two episodes, 30 minutes apiece piece on this, this is a 10-hour series that you can listen to. That's wild.
Speaker 2:It's really, really good. And then, lastly, michael Heiser has a one-hour documentary on YouTube about this, about going into the UFO genre and how a Christian should approach this subject.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, tim, this just came up because you earlier you mentioned and I'm not going to veer off too far where you mentioned that a lot of these experiences that they have are traumatic. And that makes a lot of sense when you talk about religiosity or the seek for you know, higher power, meaning, so on. But two question one is do these people get multiple experiences of this same phenomena or is it just a one-time experience and that's kind of what sets them on this journey, you know, spiritual journey in a sense?
Speaker 2:well, I don't have the numbers in front of me of like who gets one experience, who gets multiples, but there are people who get multiple experiences okay, there's similar things happening yeah, there's one individual in particular who claims he can summon the aliens and talk to them, and I've watched interviews of this guy and I'm firmly convinced that he's demonized.
Speaker 2:He doesn't believe this. In fact, he was a former Christian. He's had Christian friends tell him dude, you're messing around with demons, they're not aliens, they're demons. He's like no, no, no, they're real. And here's the thing is that while a lot of these experiences are traumatic, some of them are not traumatic. Some people get healed by the aliens.
Speaker 2:Yes, by the quote unquote aliens. Some people receive healings, they see what appear to be like good miracles in their lives and they conclude that these beings are benevolent. They just conclude from that, but I would. I would just caution, like anyone who hears a story like that. Just remember predators are nice to people, like sexual predators are nice to people initially, until they take advantage yeah child predators are nice to children to lure them in.
Speaker 2:we we know this is the case for predators. Why would we not think that's possible with these quasi spiritual entities who we know nothing about? From our vantage point, we do not understand. Why would we conclude that they're benevolent just because they do something nice to us?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, I like that. I guess this gave me the idea that if we continue on with this topic, I'm sure it's going to get. I'm sure everyone's going to be interested in these two topics. So thanks for sharing on that. But there is a trauma component to this, and even what you mentioned about the healing piece too, because one of the things that's impacted with either a very significant healing piece or a very significant traumatic piece is how that affects your memory and what that you know where. That caused you to fill in the blanks as you create this narrative about your life, of what you've seen, what you've experienced. So there could be something there. So, yeah, man, great topic. I'm really intrigued, very interested, and especially if there's this new piece that we can dive into. But I'm looking forward to hearing from you guys. I don't know if there was anything else that you wanted to add, tim.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I gave all my book references and again, we only just really scratched the surface on this. I mean, this is a decades long, hundreds of books written on this subject and lots of Christian authors who have tackled this as well. So I would just caution people. It's okay In fact, if you're going to be talking about this subject, you need to be informed as a Christian but just stay grounded in the scriptures.
Speaker 2:Stay grounded in a biblical worldview. Don't make this your life's work. You're not going to solve this problem. Don't make this your life's obsession okay, but take it seriously. And take it seriously on behalf of the people who do experience this stuff, who do have encounters, because they're going to come asking for answers and, as a Christian, I think we need to have those answers and take them seriously. If someone were to come to me tomorrow and say I got abducted by aliens, I would look at them and say I don't think you're crazy. You know there was a time in my life where I might've said like, okay, maybe this person's cuckoo That'd be me.
Speaker 2:But like nowadays for the study that I've done and what I've learned. I would look at them and say you know, I can't say for certain if that was true because I wasn't there, but I don't think you're crazy, because enough of this stuff has happened. That's real and you're free to tell me more. Like it's safe here with me. You can tell me more. I don't think you're crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, give space for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, thank you, tim. Guys, if you're interested in hearing more about this, feel free to message us. Let us know, because Tim is definitely excited. He's dove into the topic very well and I have a lot of questions though, so hopefully we can cover that.
Speaker 2:Let's have our audience submit questions on this, and then we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think we did that too. So we'll submit a little voting poll thing and you guys can submit your questions there and we'll try to answer that in the next recording. But thank you guys for tuning in. We will see you next time.
