Psych and Theo Podcast
Welcome to the "Psych and Theo Podcast". We’re your hosts, Sam and Tim. Join us as we tackle cultural issues by providing insightful discussions from both a theological and psychological perspective.
From celebrity pastors and church controversies to hot-button topics like abortion, gay marriage, and gender identity, we address these issues with grace, humor, knowledge, and wisdom. If you’re looking for thought-provoking conversations on church culture, pop culture, mental health, moral issues, and all things related to the Bible, then you’ve come to the right place.
We do our best to bring our unique perspectives to navigating the complexities of faith and culture through the lens of theology and psychology.
If you’re ready to challenge your thinking and deepen your understanding, then follow us on the "Psych and Theo Podcast." Subscribe now and join the conversation!”
Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 46 - The Psychology of Faith: Unmasking False Teachers
Explore the intriguing interplay between faith and psychology in this episode, where we shine a light on the nuances of church leadership and the sometimes deceptive practices of false teachers. A riveting discussion with Ricardo Stacy from the Theosys Podcast uncovers the psychological tricks and manipulative methods that some church leaders utilize to captivate their audiences.
Listeners are encouraged to examine their relationships with faith in a broader context, considering how experiences and attachment styles may influence their perceptions of God. Relationships within the church can sometimes manifest as sources of trauma when expectations and teachings become misaligned with personal beliefs. Our explorations spark necessary discussions surrounding discernment, urging you to question teachings that may promote misleading narratives.
As we differentiate between false teachings and core doctrinal truths, you'll gain new insights into how to recognize and navigate these complexities within your faith journey. With real-life examples and an emphasis on shared accountability amongst believers, this episode inspires a proactive approach toward understanding faith.
Join us in redefining the conversation around spirituality, challenging conventional views, and striving for deeper, healthier connections both with God and within his church community. Don't forget to share your thoughts, subscribe, and leave a review to join this enlightening journey!
FOLLOW US ON INSTAGRAM:
@psych_and_theo
Psych and Theo Link
FOLLOW US ON FACEBOOK:
Psych and Theo Link
Please leave a review, send comments and questions, and share the podcast with everyone you know. We love having these conversations with you all and are thankful for your support!
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
Well, all right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theopodcast. This has been some exciting times here. Today, we are going to be sharing a second special episode with a good friend of ours, ricardo Stacy, and he has a podcast called Theosis Podcast, and we went on his show and we talked about church leadership, false teachers and the psychological tricks or methods that they use to entertain and keep the audience that they do. So it was a really good episode. We talked about a lot of different things, but that was kind of the core of that podcast episode.
Speaker 1:So I hope that you guys enjoy it and before you guys do, as always, we thank you for tuning into the podcast, for subscribing to the podcast, also wanted hope that you guys enjoy it and, before you guys do, as always, we thank you for tuning into the podcast, for subscribing to the podcast. Also wanted to let you know that we're on Instagram. You can find us at psych underscore and underscore Theo, and leave us a review, leave some comments, provide feedback, anything. We really want to again continue to tailor the episodes that we discuss to you guys who are listening and recommending those episodes. We have a number of popular ones that we're going to touch on in the following weeks and some new ones that are going to be quite exciting, as you guys have demonstrated some levels of excitement for these upcoming topics, so I hope you guys enjoy. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:So we're both like baby podcasts yeah we started in uh in february last year. Oh nice, we're coming up on the one year sweet one year here.
Speaker 2:What do you guys have planned for the anniversary special episode, or anything?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, we're thinking about it. I have to uh, oh, there we go about what we want that to look like, and so on.
Speaker 3:Hey Tim, hey guys, How's it going? Hey, can you hear me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what inspired you guys to start your podcast?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we talked a while back. I had this idea of tackling cultural issues from a psychological and theological perspective and because they often were seen as not compatible or not being able to work with each other. Yeah, so I'm a licensed professional counselor so I wanted to take care of that piece. But I needed a theology guy and a lot of people recommended Tim to me and we had never met. Oh yeah, so Tim and I linked up and we talked over some coffee, gave it some thought, prayed about it and here we are Psych and Theology Nice, nice, yeah, thought, read about it and here we are, so I can feel, nice, nice, yeah, I love that concept.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, yeah, those are two things that I've always been, um, pretty obsessed with. Like, I'm a huge Jordan Peterson fan, so that's like, you know psychology and you know he gets into a lot of religious stuff as well, so, yeah, that's a good combination. But, yeah, that is it's sort of like the age-old science versus god type thing, right. So how do you guys, like I guess, um reconcile that, or is it just like a no-brainer to like yeah they're, they're compatible yeah, there's.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's some issues that we are both able to to touch on. But I think we we went through a a couple of series or episodes where I would the whole episode would be focused on something theological or biblical or church oriented and tim would handle that. Now we're asking questions. And then there's others where we just do mental health psychology and then he would ask me questions. But there are some episodes where we there's just a lot of overlap, where both they would contribute to it. It's like today, even as, even though we're talking about false teachers and and false teaching, there's a lot of personality stuff that comes into that too. You know like who who pursues these things, who who teaches those things. So we'll get into a little bit about that, but yeah for sure, yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've always I don't know the whole. Yeah, like science and god not mixing, like, yeah, it's something that, because I remember, um, I have an uncle down in mexico who, uh, he's a psychologist. Um, yeah, I think he was a therapist for a long time and then now he's like the head of the I don't know psychology um section at a university and um yeah, but so.
Speaker 2:So he's always been, you know, like, oh, he's, he's a psychologist, right, he's like the smart, educated uncle. But uh, he, he always used to tell me ghost stories, like supernatural things that would happen to him. And so I remember, like in the back of my head ever since I was a little kid, I was always like, okay, yeah, so he, he, definitely he believes in all that stuff. Like he's not, like these are personal experiences that he had, right, like one time he had like this like skeleton lady thing jump on top of him and he like pushed her off and then she disappeared, um, and you know, he talks about like yeah, this is something that happened. Like I didn't make it up, he never did drugs, um, yeah, it's just something that happened. But he's also a psychologist, so it's kind of like you know, how do you, how do you reconcile those things?
Speaker 3:But it is what it is. We, we, we just did an episode last night with another podcast asking us some of those questions when did where did the bifurcation happen between psychology and theology, or, you know, mind and spirit, I might say? So we went into that a little bit and as far as the Enlightenment and how the sciences took off in one direction with rationalism and empiricism and a lot of authority got shifted into those schools of thought separated or divorced from any theological framework, but we talked about how your worldview can, your worldview really influences that, and by worldview I mean your presuppositions about reality. So if someone is not open to the supernatural like they have a worldview of atheism, materialism, naturalism, of atheism, materialism, naturalism they maybe nothing outside of some sort of supernatural encounter would convince them.
Speaker 3:Otherwise, you know, somebody might tell them hey, I saw something crazy yeah and they might say oh well, that was the cereal you ate the night before you know, right, but if you have a worldview that that actually open to those things, then you are more likely to accept testimonies of what happens, and we talked about how those you know. We need to conclude you know something supernatural is occurring. You need multiple lines of evidence. You know there's a big gap between what you can know and what you can prove. So I can. I could know something that I could never prove to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's things that I know that I can never prove to you. Yeah and uh. Same thing goes with supernatural. You could have a supernatural experience where you're like, yeah, I know that was real, that wasn't fake, but it's hard, be hard for me to prove that to you. But then there's other times where you have multiple lines of evidence where two or more people experience the same thing, and the probability of that being just the pepperoni pizza you know that we ate is pretty low.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it becomes undeniable, right, it's like, yeah, it all. It becomes more absurd to cling on to. No, there's a scientific explanation for it, there is no supernatural scientific explanation for it, there is no supernatural like it. Yeah, that that's kind of how I am now like with my faith, um, even though, like you know, I may have still doubts and and question things, but, like I know, I could never go back to to being an atheist because that to me is just like it's just too absurd.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I mean, like I was, I was raised cath Catholic and now I'm back as a practicing Catholic, but for a long time, yeah, I was an atheist or agnostic, like, oh, who knows, maybe there is a God out there somewhere, but he doesn't care about us, he just created us and left us alone, kind of thing. But anyways, yeah, I can't go back to that whole atheist denial thing because it to me it's just more absurd, like I'd rather be a crazy religious nut than, yeah, deny it, because to me there's just no way. Like, yeah, how are we here? There's just, we didn't just, you know, come out of nothing and, like you know, a series of accidents. I guess that's one thing too that I kind of still have an issue with like um, like with evolution, even though you know there's like obviously very compelling arguments for it.
Speaker 2:But I'm just like there's no way that you know, like these things that you see, like certain birds or whatever, like that they develop, you know, like, oh, this bird it evolved to look like you know it has eyes on its wings and it scares off predators. Like that didn't happen by accident. Come on, like that's just more absurd, that oh, it was just a series of accidents and you know they kept reproducing until you know you have that, that final product like I don't know. To me that just it's bizarre.
Speaker 1:How long were you in that? We're in that space for ricardo being like atheist being an atheist um, man, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it started pretty early on. Um, I would say, maybe like around 15, 15 years, something I don't know.
Speaker 1:Maybe yeah was that I said wow, so you're a teenager when it started happening.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I don't know, because I I think I had my first communion and confirmation.
Speaker 2:I was like eight years old um and I was already like, I had heavy doubts already at that point and, um, yeah, and then, yeah, as a teenager, I was, yeah, that's when I, you, I entered that whole edgy teenager kind of stage of life and I was like there's no God. And so, um, yeah, that that happened like around yeah, like 12, 13 years old, um, and then, you know, over time, I just I kind of it's more like I lost that passion for the atheist thing, like I just kind of didn't care anymore, like, and regardless if there is a god or not, like I don't really care.
Speaker 2:Um, and then, yeah, when I was like in my early 20s, I had, uh, some experiences that you know, like what we're saying, like something you live through that you can't really deny, and yeah then, ever since then, since my early 20s um, yeah, just like having more and more interest and an openness to it, and um, yeah, now I'm 32 and, yeah, it was last december or december of 2023 that I started going back to the catholic church, so I must have been 31, um, so, yeah, kind of kind of a long journey, I guess. Um, but, yeah, so you guys, you both work at a university, right, yeah, okay, yeah, so you're sam. Are you like the head of the psychology, or what exactly is your position?
Speaker 1:no, I wish, I wish. No, actually I'm a, I'm a counselor there for our students, so we work in a counseling department, so I counsel students, I run a couple of groups, do some psychoeducation stuff, but yeah, so that's kind of my role. I teach some psychology courses as well. Okay, nice, so that's kind of my role. Tim is also a teacher, tim. I don't know if you want to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm an adjunct professor in the College of Arts and Sciences philosophy department. I mostly teach ethics or introductory ethics. Sometimes I'll teach in School of Divinity. So I teach theology and philosophy topics and then I also work in the administrative side in a division called the Office of Spiritual Development. So we do all things you know spiritual life on campus.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 3:So I worked there and I, I train. I mainly train students on how to travel and be good travelers, overseas cultural intelligence, both with world religions and with cultural customs and taboos and things like that. So a lot of traveling for my, my job.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what so? Oh sweet, a lot of traveling for my, my job.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, nice, yeah, yeah, what, uh, what's your favorite?
Speaker 2:place you've been to. Oh man, uh, I love turkey, turkey turkey's just a.
Speaker 3:It's a. It's a great place. I don't know if I live there, but I do. I do love visiting there. Costa rica as well. Costa rica's got a special place in my heart.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, yeah, yeah um, yeah, I don't know. I just I wanted to to get that in real quick because, yeah, I saw, uh on instagram, you guys have like little um like introductions of yourselves and I think you mentioned that. But yeah, I just wanted to touch on that, make sure we had that in there. Um, but yeah, I love that whole like um like how our psychological, um, I guess, personalities affect our perception of god and religion. I think, sam, you've been uploading some videos about that, right, like how you're like if you're um, what is it your attachment style? Right like if you're avoidance, like how that like avoidance or what is it secure attachment, like how all that affects your perception of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there was actually, it was going to be an area of study that was going to focus on. It was attachment style and as you start kind of digging into that aspect, there's a lot of correlation to how we relate to God. So that talked about how your early relationships, or even relations within the church, can shape your, your, view of god. Um, so, for someone who is anxiously attached to people in their, in their life, who maybe are seeking, uh, reaffirmation or they're seeking, um, acceptance, they they start to behave in people pleasing ways and those same people who have that attachment style transfer that over to relationship with God, where they are very performance oriented and performance space and if they don't do something right, they feel like God's kind of like oh, you messed up again, you know you're not worthy of me, and so they feel very unworthy, right? So those those relationships show up in your relationship with God.
Speaker 1:And same thing, you know, as you were mentioning, kind of the how you kind of moved away from your faith for a while. Yeah, like that would be someone who maybe would have an avoidant attachment style where maybe they were hurt by someone or they feel like they can't trust anyone, so they kind of transfer that over to the relationship with God, because the people who hurt them were in church, right, anyone. So they kind of transfer that over to the relationship with God because the people who hurt them were in church, right. So maybe it was a pastor, a leader, someone who called themselves a Christian and and just kind of said something or hurt you in some way. So we start to well, because they're connected to church, then it must be God's fault or it must be connected to God in some way, right, they become avoidance, uh, with God. Wow, that's so interesting. A lot of cool stuff, yeah yeah, tim.
Speaker 2:Have you noticed anything like how your personality or attachment styles affect your faith?
Speaker 3:yeah, you know, I grew up in a pretty conservative environment. Um, those who are listening and know what I mean by independent fundamentalist, uh, that's, I grew up in that kind of environment in the Midwest and that's a very, very strict environment where God is a lot of times portrayed as a really harsh, angry figure, not really loving, um, and the culture around that is very legalistic and shame based culture. So, uh, as I grew up, um, that was my understanding of god and, um, my, I think my attitude really affected me a lot. You know, I struggled to, um, I could understand intellectually the love of god or I could understand intellectually the, the concept of god as father, but experientially or emotionally understanding that, allowing that to affect my, my being, but not just, not just like me, but how I treat or or interact with other people. That took a long, long time to work out of me and I, you know, I, I think, as, as all of us, it still affects me even today. You know, I find myself, even even in these days, having to push back against.
Speaker 3:You know, those childhood kind of memories and concepts, uh, so, um, yeah, I mean that's, those who grew up in those ultra conservative environments can often feel that like I'm never doing anything right and god's never pleased with me. Uh, and a lot of judgment, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's those kind of people and I myself, you know it's, they knew, they always knew the right thing to do, like we, we don't do this, we do this, we don't do this, do this and so their lifestyles are very usually organized and, uh, put together, but on the inside they're in turmoil or or they completely snap and they go off the deep end.
Speaker 3:Uh, whereas someone who wasn't that you know, they they got sort of sown their wild oats when they were younger. But then someone who comes out of a culture of this shame-based legalism can really snap and go off the deep end yeah, um, I don't think that was a huge thing for me.
Speaker 2:I mean, I do remember, like, like, uh, being a kid and when I, when I lived down in mexico, we had a neighbor who she was super catholic, very, very, um, yeah, devout in her faith, would go to church every day. And I remember one day I was just playing with I had these little toys, like I think they were pokemon toys, and uh, yeah, she saw them and she picked them. She's like, oh, yeah, these are the pokemon I've been hearing about. Yeah, these are demonic. And she's like, look, look, look here. And she was like pointing at the ears of one of these figures that I had and she's like, look, they're like demonic horns, they're just ears, they're just ears on this little figure.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, I, I kind of get that whole like judgmental thing. Um, and then, like, even before, with this same neighbor that I had, uh, I remember one time I think I was, it was gonna be like my fifth birthday or something, and then, uh, yeah, I was telling her about I'm like, oh, it's gonna be my birthday tomorrow. And she's like, yeah, god willing, you know, it's just like a phrase, common phrase, and then I remember I was what do you mean? God willing, it is going to be my birthday, like it just is. And so I think, yeah, from a young age I just I had this issue of I think it was tied into like having an issue with authority. And yeah, I just kind of like like who is this God guy that has control over my life and, you know, I want to live my life my way, and who is he to to?
Speaker 2:you know, say that I can't enjoy pokemon kind of thing you know so yeah, ever since I was really little, I always had that, that mentality, um, and yeah, this whole, yeah, this whole thing about like how your attachment style and your upbringing can affect your faith. That's so fascinating. I need to, I need to look into that. I'm honestly not too sure what my attachment style is, because you know there's like these tests you can take online and it seems like whenever I take them, like I'll get different answers, or or they're so long that I don't even want to finish taking them. So, yeah, I'm not sure, but yeah for sure I do see there's that link right between, like, our earthly self and, I guess you know, our heavenly self. You can call it our connection to God. And I've noticed that recently with because with myself, like I was pretty much raised by a single mother. My whole life I didn't have my dad, and I can see that affecting my faith too, because you know, with God the father already as it is, he's like such a like I don't know this alien vague thing that I don't really understand. But then, even with Jesus you know as much as like he's human, right, he's God in the flesh. But even like with that like I just I've always had this strange issue with, I guess, connecting with other men and especially like fatherly figures. I've always had an issue with that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't know, just like, when it comes to jesus, I guess there is sort of that feeling of like rejection maybe, like like, oh, I don't think jesus would like me, kind of on a personal level, um, and, yeah, I I do because I'm catholic, um, you know the virgin mary and I'm mexican, so you know the la virgen de guadalupe. She's huge in our, in our culture, and so it's. It's interesting because I can see that, like, I feel like I have more of like a connection through jesus or to jesus through her, um, and I think it is kind of like that whole because I'm familiar with more of like a motherly figure, right, a motherly love. That's something that I'm familiar with. That's what I grew up with, um, you know, being raised by my mother. So, yeah, I can see that having an effect on my faith. So, um, yeah, I don't know if that's like necessarily like a good or a bad thing, I don't know, but yeah, just something that I noticed which is interesting.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you sharing that record. I think you know, as we talk about the things that are taught in church, you know and Tim kind of alluded to this earlier is that what we're taught about God and how he meets our needs and how he's there for us and you know who he is in our lives, like those things. There's a lot of things like that that are taught from the pulpit, that are they're sometimes communicated too much on one side or the other, right. So on one hand there's churches that teach, you know, god is righteous, justice and will bring judgment when it's not, but that's all they teach. That's just one side or one aspect of God's character. Then you also have the other side that highly emphasizes love, grace and mercy but forgets that there's also judgment. Right, and that shapes the way that we view God. Right.
Speaker 1:So those who are grew up in more conservative, fundamentalist churches kind of have this view of God of only a punisher or only a justice seeker, right. And there's other ones that just see him as kind and loving and will never send anyone to hell, type of thing. Right, and, tim, you could speak more to that. Just kind of what you've seen in what churches teach. But there's a lot of correlation with that. As we're kind of discussing now, is that what we're taught about God in the church starts to shape how we relate to God. You know, and just the aspect that you shared about growing up without a father yeah, it's hard to make that connection of someone who's going to establish discipline or justice right that when you don't know what that actually looks like or what a healthy version of that looks like, right. You know you only have what your mom's shown you, so it's easier to connect to those other characteristics of god that show that maybe love and kindness and grace that your mother showed you.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right, right, tim, if you wanted to add to that yeah, I'd say that the people who grew up in the conservative environments. It's easy to serve God out of fear and out of duty, not out of love. So I do things because I don't want God to punish me. And I do things because, well, god said to do it, not necessarily because I want to do it, or I want to do it because I don't want to get punished yeah, yeah, because I want to do it. Or I want to do it because I don't want to get punished, yeah, yeah. And so it's hard for people in that environment to really understand like a love of God, that's safe.
Speaker 3:Safe to be loved by God and to relate to him as a loving parent. So I've seen so many uh people I've grown up with struggle with that you know whether they say it or not. You know you can see it.
Speaker 2:I struggle with that, yeah yeah, that's interesting that, yeah, you can see that within yourself. But it's good that you had the yeah, I guess that I don't know like initiative within yourself to um, yeah, like, analyze it and kind of, um, you know, deconstruct it and, and I guess, make it a more like healthy, I guess a healthy relationship right with with your faith. Um, yeah, because I mean a lot of people who come from that background, yeah, they just, like you said, they go off the deep end, right, and they totally sever. They're like, nah, I don't want any part of that. You know, they're just just closed minded people, judgmental people, and yeah, the way I see it, it's like, yeah, with our faith, it's we need to make it something that people, yeah, want to participate in. Right, they want it, not just because, yeah, they're afraid or they feel like, oh, if I'm not a part of this community, then I'll be judged by my peers. It's like, no, it should be something that people choose Right. And yeah, I think that's that's all wrapped into.
Speaker 2:I guess the false teachings, right, that's what we're here to talk about. Yeah, it's discernment, right, I feel like discernment is really like at the, at the heart of it. How do we determine right, false teachings and what's true. Um, yeah, because a big part of it, right it's, it's it's ourselves, uh, and we need to adhere to an authority. But, yeah, sometimes we need to like navigate through that. So, um, yeah, just in general, um, and I I know you guys you released another episode on your podcast about false teachings. I was listening to that last night. You guys covered some interesting ground there. But, yeah, in general, yeah, what's your take on false teachings?
Speaker 3:Okay, all right. So this question about false teaching is more biblical and theological than it is psychological, but I think where Sam can come in is speaking to the power of manipulation and what can happen to people that maybe are falling prey to false teaching.
Speaker 3:So you know, you referenced the episode that we did in our podcast and thanks for uh listening to that, uh, I guess, to your listeners. Go and download that podcast if they want. Let's plug for psych and theo. Um, I think you know, to get into this subject, we have to define what we mean, and a lot of what I'll say here is what we say in that episode, but I'm sure you'll take it in some unique directions. But let's define, guess, initially, what we mean by false teaching. I think a helpful division here would be between false teaching and the word heresy. Heresy is a term that refers to the denial or the rejection of core theological truths. So a heretic is someone who teaches something that is contrary to the historic orthodox christian faith. This would be someone who falls your. So, uh, ricardo, you're a catholic or protestants. So a heretic would not be someone who's a Catholic or a Protestant. It would be someone who denies, like core fundamental doctrines Catholics and Protestants, both, along with Eastern Orthodox.
Speaker 2:So a Mormon, yeah yeah, yeah, it'd be like a.
Speaker 3:Mormon? Yeah, it's because Catholics, eastern Orthodox, protestants, all affirm the historic creeds of the faith, like the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed. We all have that shared common tradition and those core doctrines about the deity of Christ, the God, the Father, the Holy Spirit, the death and resurrection of Jesus, the second coming, these kinds of core doctrines we share. Someone who's a heretic would deny one of those fundamental doctrines. A mormon, for instance, would deny the full deity of jesus christ. They are non-trinitarian, you know, so they don't believe in the father, son and holy spirit as co-equal, co-eternal persons in the godhead, right jesus. Jesus is a created being. In mormonism, joseph's witnesses would be a similar thing. Um, and there's lots of different offshoots of uh groups like that. So a hair a heretic and the classical sense of the word would be someone who denies those core doctrines.
Speaker 3:A false teacher could be a heretic in that they could be teaching those things, but a false teacher could also be teaching things that are extremely destructive. They could be teaching things that are false, as in it's a different gospel, and so therefore it might be, it might be heresy, or they might be teaching things that are demonic and very, very deceptive. So it's just kind of helpful to distinguish those two terms. Like a heretic, we kind of know exactly what that, what that is, but a false teacher. Someone could be a false teacher and a heretic.
Speaker 3:But someone could be a false teacher in the sense of they're they're not, even, they're not aware that they're teaching something that's, uh, problematic you know it could be someone who's a christian who's peddling in a doctrine or some sort of false doctrine that um later, if you show them, hey, this is wrong, they'll repent from that and turn the other way. So we just want to be careful how we throw out the when we label people false teachers. We got to kind of be careful how we define our terms. So think of false teaching and heresy as like a Venn diagram.
Speaker 2:False teaching is like a bigger circle. Heretics is a particular type of false teaching and heresy is like a Venn diagram False teaching is like a bigger circle.
Speaker 3:Heretics is a particular type of false teaching.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's the kind of basic definition. Okay, so some characteristics of false teaching that we can look at in scripture would be one false teachers in the let's say, in the malevolent sense, the evil, evil intent, let's say. If we're talking about that kind of false teaching, it's predatory. First, jesus refers to these types of people as wolves in sheep's clothing. They sneak into churches with the intent to destroy the lives of believers. So they're predators in a way, and in that sense they are acting as agents of Satan. They're either demonized or they're acting on behalf of that in some way.
Speaker 3:So, Jesus warns us about their character. He says you'll know them by their fruits like a can a can, a good tree, produce bad fruit? Uh, it's a question he asked in matthew 7. So a false teacher is going to produce bad fruit, and that fruit is not necessarily very apparent on the surface, but it could. It'll come out in their behavior and maybe the things they say, or, in time, it'll come out in the scandals that follow them.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and the headlines.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, so they're predatory. With that, they might show abilities with great spiritual power and charisma. They might be very winsome, charismatic and persuasive charisma. They might be very winsome, charismatic and persuasive. Strangely enough, they might even be able or claim to perform miracles or hear from the Lord, or anything like that Some kind of divine nature? Yeah, they can be quite persuasive in a lot of ways, and that speaks to their manipulative behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're psychopaths, which is where that whole psychology thing kind of overlaps right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, certainly there could be sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies. Sam can get into the distinction of those two things. I always get those two confused sociopathic and psychopathic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm still not clear on those either. I always look it up and I forget.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but yeah, these kind of false teachers would be characterized by denial or questioning of core doctrines. Maybe they are questioning like core ethical behaviors, like sexual ethics in the Christian life, or they kind of cast doubt on the authority of scripture or maybe something like the deity of Christ or something like that. You know, it could go in many different directions. They could be encouraging people to engage in sexual immorality in some way. There's a there's a woman named Jezebel who's referenced in the, the letter to Thyatira in the book of revelation, and she that's what she's doing, and God basically warns that church. He's like. He basically says he's going to kill her and then, and then, if, if, anyone who's following her doesn't repent, he's going to do the same to them. Uh, so he's. It's a pretty serious judgment. Yeah, paul talks about judiaizers. These are jews who have come into the church and they are attempting to twist or change the gospel, and so they're attaching something to the gospel and therefore changes it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like. Weren't they the ones saying like oh, you still need to get circumcised. Yeah yeah, that's in the book of Galatians, yeah Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so those would be characteristics of these people are predatory, they're preying on Christians and getting them to do things that are contrary to the gospel itself. They Getting them to do things that are contrary to the gospel itself. They can be very carnal, yeah yeah. Another characteristic was that it could be very carnal and that is worldly minded, focused on sexual things, focused like a, like an odd focus yeah.
Speaker 3:Fixation, thank you. Fixation on sexual things like just lewd joking and uh things like that from the pulpit. And obsession with wealth, right, material things. These are carnal in nature, they're fleshly in nature, yeah, very worldly uh, and with that they can be very greedy, they can amass they would tend to amass wealth for themselves, make displays of that that wealth, brag about it. Even sometimes All that stuff is contrary to the qualifications of a teacher or an elder in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we all we already were thinking of. We have certain people specifically in our minds that we know.
Speaker 3:And that goes for both our traditions, catholic and Protestant. In the Protestant world it's like a circus. Sometimes we have all kinds of charlatans that come out of the woodwork. And in the Catholic Church I'm sure you could speak to a lot of the scandals that have come out with various elders or teachers and priests or bishops over the years and it's not unique to any of our traditions, is my point, you know.
Speaker 3:and yeah it's something that jesus warned us all about that wolves will come in to prey on believers so yeah, those are some characteristics carnal, greedy, predatory, uh, with that can it can be uh, legalistic, and that they convince people to adopt different moral codes, like the Judaizers and Galatians, I would put somewhat. I would put Seventh-day Adventists in this category. Not all of them, but some of them, depending on their views of their founder is Ellen B White. I think it's Ellen G White. Ellen B White, I always forget, but some of them elevate her teachings to the authority of the Bible, wow, and some of them don't. Some of them think, no, they're just helpful, they're just helpful teachings. So it really depends on, I think, how they view her, because she came up with an entire moral code for true Christians to follow Interesting, yeah, for true christians to follow interesting, yeah, yeah. So those are just some characteristics of what uh like a very, um, almost really a radical kind of false teaching would look like, yeah, it's funny because, yeah, a lot of what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you guys are aware, but, um, a couple episodes back, I talk about my experience of having been briefly part of a cult last year. So somebody reached out to me online inviting me to join a Bible study group online and I did and, yeah, it turned out like the focus of this Bible study was to understand the book of Revelation, which you know it's like a very cryptic book. And, yeah, their whole thing was like, oh, we're going to use the rest of the Bible to understand, like parables and figurative language and that's how we're going to deconstruct everything that is said in Revelation. And you know, over time, like I was interested in it because it seemed like it was coming from an angle of being very like symbolic, right, like, oh, we're going to understand the real meaning of what's there. And, like I mentioned, I've been a big fan of Jordan Peterson for a long time and that's kind of like you know, something that he talks about, right, like the symbolism behind things, and so, yeah, I thought it was just really interesting.
Speaker 2:So I stuck around for, like I think, about four months. But yeah, over time I time I realized like no, something's fishy here, like they're definitely trying to, like you know, put their own spin on things, right, their own angle, even though, like I'm not a biblical scholar myself, but I can already tell, like you know, just from my limited understanding of having been raised catholic and, I guess, like a pop culture understanding of of the faith. I'm like no, something's not right here, like they're definitely trying to lead us to a certain ending right that they that they want um. So then I did some research online and I figured out that, um, they're a cult based out of korea.
Speaker 2:they're called shin chonji, um and uh yeah just if, when you guys have a chance, you should look into it. It it's really fascinating and they've been around since like the 80s, which, yeah, I never heard about them until I was a part of it. So really interesting. But, yeah, definitely. You know, when I was in these classes, the instructors that we had super charismatic right, like you know, you wanted to like, oh, I want to be their friend, I want to understand. Like you know, this is so interesting. They made it seem so appealing, um, and then you know, when I researched, um, like who they actually were, and I find out that, yeah, this guy, um, their leader, lee man, he, uh, yeah, he, he wrote his own book back in the 80s about how, um an angel delivered him a vision of showing him the fulfillment of the book of revelation classic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly yeah, so he's got his own book right.
Speaker 2:That's kind of like elevated above the bible in a sense. Um, and then, yeah, he makes claims of like kind of being a deity and rejecting like oh, Christ is not coming back in the flesh, he's just a spirit kind of thing. And he refers to himself as the new John right, Because the book of Revelation is written by John. He's like I'm the new John who, um, you know, I see the fulfillment of the prophecy and you know, obviously he's the one that, uh, he understands the entire Bible. You know, he's like the ultimate authority.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's just funny how yeah, that's interesting because you remember what I just said about false teachers and heretics, like if it's a, it's a heretical, false teacher. They're going to change some sort of core doctrine and it's not knowing. I was about to ask you, I did, but not knowing about that, call you. You described how, uh, he started to change what the doctrine of the second coming yeah, classic doctrine is that christ will come back and establish his kingdom.
Speaker 3:That has not happened yet right and it sounds like this cult is changing that doctrine, that he maybe he already came back, or uh, the leader of the cult is the embodiment of christ in some way, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's something like yeah, it's like, he's, he's kind of the, I guess the ambassador for christ yeah, christ is not coming back he says, yeah, um, and yeah, he says that the events, uh, in the book of revelation like you, you know the prophecies. I guess they already took place in the 80s or 70s, something like that he says that it was all like this ceremony that took place and you know, it's honestly, it's all very like, it's all very detailed in how he explains it. And so if you stick around for that whole Bible study class, which I think it takes like 10 months to complete, I can see how these people end up being brainwashed because, yeah, they're slowly being fed. Oh well, this is what this means, is what that means? And so then, when it comes to the conclusion, it's like oh well, yeah, that makes total sense that you know the book of Revelation. It was all a prophecy about this ceremony that took place in korea back in the in the 70s.
Speaker 3:So, um yeah, a tactic of those teachers is to what I call weaving. They weave in and out of a, a biblical principle that is true, or a bible verse that is true. They'll interpret that correctly and then they'll weave in some weird or esoteric interpretation right with it, and so it has. It has this facade of of uh authority and persuasiveness to it and it sucks a lot of people in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there's some truth in there with the lies, right.
Speaker 1:So just to kind of um, add to that piece is that a lot of these teachers what they'll play on is kind of like the fears, the anxieties or even the desires that people have, and they know this right, they know it's almost like they take a poll or they do like a survey and they just know what people are looking for. Right, and you kind of touched on this a little bit is there's this emotional piece that if you could tug on people's emotional heartstrings in a way, or their fears or something that you can really build on that. So, for example, I think you said um, you know, seeing talking about revelation, like that's a good thing, like a lot of people are interested in that, yeah, um, so he knows that if I build a case for, hey, I going to give this big discussion or teaching on revelation, people are going to be interested. Why? Because they like the mystery, they like to figure out these things. So that's kind of like the hook to get people in and then, once they're in, then you slowly start shifting those things Right. It's not always abrupt and you know to his point earlier about, you know, psychopaths and sociopaths.
Speaker 1:Psychopaths are very technical and very calculated in their moves because they know what they're doing. It's psychological warfare, right. They know how to appeal to the emotions. They know how to address things or present it in a way that's appealing, right. So that's what these teachers have this kind of psychopathic approach to capturing people, right, and again they're they're very cocky, so they're going to wait, and a lot of the what we're seeing in the churches nowadays is kind of this emotional piece, like we're going to give the music, we're going to give this big presentation, right, this this huge show to get them just emotionally, and they're just ready to receive anything. When you feel good, you're more willing to accept things that are being given to you, right? So that seems to be the.
Speaker 1:The approach that a lot of these um uh churches, or false teachers kind of uh approach it from is that they want to build up the emotions. They want to um, get you not to really think logically through things so that they can share that information and lead you astray. You know, sociopaths are more of the weird type of crazy, right? They're the ones who, just, they look crazy and they act a little crazy, right? They're more impulsive, they don't seem normal, right? Psychopaths, you know, they're the ones that Tim was mentioning more charismatic. They're very calculated, know what they're doing, right.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of one of one of the ways in which you can uh make that distinction there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the psychopaths, yeah, it's that whole the wolf in sheep's clothing, right, because on the outside they can appear to be good, normal people or whatever, but on the inside they're, yeah, planning, planning people's destruction, the big word right now in the fee is the, the narcissist, right, and it's thrown around a lot so I hesitate almost sharing that, because some people display narcissistic behaviors but that doesn't mean they're narcissists, like a narcissist personality disorder, right? So just being very careful with that, um, because you do see other personality traits that also play a huge role, like someone who is it's called the five person, the big five personality trait, so there's an acronym for it is ocean. So O is openness, c is conscientiousness, e is extroversion, a is agreeableness and N is neuroticism, right. So people who are high in openness and high in assertiveness, they're gonna be like these type of people, right.
Speaker 1:They're assertive, they're very, you know, they strongly believe what they're saying, they're open to anything, they're very extroverted, so they can socialize and engage people very well. So they will have a more inclination to something like this, right, to seek out this type of power and, you know, influence people, right. They're probably going to be very mid to high on agreeableness, right, cause you need to agree with people to kind of win them over, but at the same time you need to be not as agreeable when it comes to them challenging what you're sharing with them and what you're sharing with them and what you're presenting to them yeah, because a lot of cool factors there, yeah, yeah, so you're saying like there's overlap there, right, so you have like all these like psychopaths, sociopaths and then just people who, um, maybe have some narcissistic personality traits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they all kind of overlap, but so we can kind of get confused like, oh, that person's a narcissist or but maybe, yeah, they just have a very high, um, uh, what are you saying? Extroversion, right, and like they have an ability to kind of win people over and all that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're like malicious, exactly yeah, yeah, because I mean you.
Speaker 1:You see, people who are extroverted and friendly all the time and because they're charismatic, it doesn't mean that that they have those intentions right, but it's the other way around, where those who are doing that, who are teaching falsely or leading people astray that's right, or leading people astray. Um, you do see these very common characteristics of high assertiveness, high ext extroversion and so on, very low on conscientiousness, which is awareness of self.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we touched on the whole thing about wealth and I think even Sam, when we were messaging back and forth on Instagram, you mentioned prosperity teachings. So, yeah, I kind of want to know what your guys's take on that is, because it is kind of tricky, right like, as people you know, we want to be successful. We have certain ambitions. I mean, like you guys, right, like you, you work at a university and you wanted to have these careers that you have, um, so, yeah, it's like where do we draw the line?
Speaker 3:right like what is good ambition and what's just, yeah, I guess, um, chasing worldly pleasures and being destructive just to kind of tie in the last point that we were talking about in the context of false teaching. A cult like the one you described, that is an example of false teaching. And a cult leader is an example of a false teacher, but it could be a lot. False teaching could be a lot broader than that. So a cult would be an example of a false teacher, but it could be a lot. False teaching could be a lot broader than that. So a cult would be an example of that. But to the question you just asked about prosperity gospel, that's an example of a teaching, a broad based false teaching. That's pervasive and there's many different false teachers that pick up on this and use it.
Speaker 3:So yeah so prosperity gospel for those who may not know what we mean refers to the belief that the Christian life is one that financial and financial prosperity, physical health and generally just the success in life is a sort of a divine right of Christians to take hold of if they have the power and the willingness to do it. It's not a guarantee, because you have to have enough faith. According to the teachers of this doctrine, you have to have enough faith and you have to say the right things and do the right things in order to get this.
Speaker 3:But if you do all these things, you can take these things. You can take wealth and health and all these things and claim them for yourself, because that is your right as a child of God. Behind this teaching is another prosperity. Gospel is actually an application of another teaching called Word of Faith Doctrine, or the word of faith movement. That started in the early 20th century and essentially a word of faith says that inside all of us is a little piece of god again, here's a here's a kernel of truth.
Speaker 3:We're created in the image of god right, okay, uh and uh.
Speaker 3:The word of faith movement says that there's a little God inside all of us and just as God. This comes from Romans 10, where Paul says uh. Or maybe it's Romans four, where he quotes he's talking about, paul's talking about Abraham and he says, uh, when God promised Abraham that he'd make him a father of many nations, god said something that wasn't and then brought it into being through his, through his word. Okay, and false teachers will take that and some other scriptures, like Psalm 82 and John chapter 10, where Jesus quotes Psalm 82 and the. The Psalm says it has this quote this is you are gods, but it's not talking about us, it's talking about angels. But they'll take that and apply it to us and say see, Jesus is saying we are little gods, and just as God can speak things into existence, so can we. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's a whole theological narrative behind all of this, if you get really into it. But essentially it says that you and I uh part of our part of the christian life is taking hold of these promises and manipulating creation, essentially by our spoken word, to bring about success into our lives so it. It actually mimics like the manifestation. I was just gonna say that yeah it actually mimics it a lot.
Speaker 2:It's, it's, uh, almost identical to it which, if you think about it in a way it is, it's kind of a satanic, luciferian principle right like I'm the one who's gonna manipulate the universe to do my will, exactly exactly yeah, and and what does it ultimately get people to do?
Speaker 3:it gets them to fix their love and their affection on things of the world. Like you said, it's not wrong to desire stability, to desire financial stability and security to be able to take care of ourselves. I mean, proverbs says poverty is like a city with broken down walls You're just vulnerable and wealth is like the walls of the city that protects you from the vulnerabilities of life. So money has a function in our lives, but prosperity gospel says this is the point of the christian life is to reverse all the effects of sin by getting us rich, healthy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, that's so ridiculous yeah and it's powerful because it because because people who are desperate yeah, buy into this so go ahead, sam you. Sam, you were going to say something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was basically that. I mean, that speaks to one of the basic human needs, right? Well, yeah, I need to survive. I need to have money to buy the things that I need, and it starts with that like things that I need, but then it becomes so excessive that now it's just well, I should be dripping in millions and millions of dollars to be able to provide the life that I'm looking for.
Speaker 1:And that's the whole appeal is that if you follow these things, you will be like me, having all this money to go to all these places, and if you don't become wealthy, then you're doing something wrong. Right, so it's playing on both pieces. There's playing on one of the desire to have money and also the fear of oh, I'm doing something wrong, so I need to keep donating money or I need to keep practicing this thing that they're telling me to do in order to get to that point. So it's just this constant cycle. Right, you can never get it. Right, you never end up having as much money as they do, so you're just stuck in that cycle. I'm gonna keep trying until I get there.
Speaker 3:I must be doing something wrong there, I must be doing something wrong. Um, so yeah, just kind of plays into that. And the false teachers in this, in this camp, are predatory and that they prey on the desperation of people and they're greedy.
Speaker 2:So they say give me money, donate to my ministry, sow a seed of faith and god will heal you yeah, they're kind of like these uh people that I've seen on the internet, like these, uh, these gurus, right, financial gurus who are like yeah, oh, I got wealthy, I'm gonna show you how to do it, so pay me 500 bucks to take my course and then, yeah, it's like just a total scam, right pyramid scheme kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, prosperity gospel is a religious version of that right yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, you see that even, yeah, right, I mean it's supposed to be, yeah, the place of God and then just yeah, seeing what they do with it, it's ridiculous. Yeah, there's this video that's kind of gone viral of this pastor who you know he was criticizing like Catholic priests, saying like, oh well, you know there's this kind of like this issue within the Catholic church because you know their leaders. Well, you know there's this kind of like this issue within the Catholic Church because you know their leaders, their priests, you know they're all like Baroque virgins basically, and so it's like you know.
Speaker 2:I mean sure you can have criticisms of the Catholic Church, but yeah, just the way he put it, it was very like, you know, because, in a sense, what some people have, you know, taken from that it's like, well, then you're criticizing Jesus, then, right, like he was a broke virgin, and so, yeah, just kind of bizarre. So, yeah, they definitely they preambule because, yeah, we all do, we want to have stability in our lives, right, we want to be able to pay our bills and provide for our families. You know, like I personally, I love the idea of getting married, starting a family, so I want to be able to provide for them, right, you know, that would be hard to do. If you know, I'm like a cashier at Walmart. I mean it's possible but it'd be difficult.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I have certain ambitions in life. But yeah, it's kind of like, how do I, how do yeah, how do I make sure, like I don't overstep those boundaries right? And yeah, I've. Even when I was an atheist, I was somebody who I always I was very critical of like materialism. I just I never understood it. I lived for a long time. I lived in Orange County, california. Orange County, california.
Speaker 3:And nearby there's.
Speaker 2:Newport Beach, which I don't know if you guys are familiar, but Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, these are all like very wealthy areas, right, and I always thought it was funny. Like you know, you have these people. They're, like, you know, conservative Christians, right, but yeah, you see them living in like these giant homes and they have like five cars in the driveway and they have yachts and jet skis and they have a vacation home in another country and it's like, yeah, they, they call themselves good Christians but yeah, they're so obsessed with wealth and that's, you know, directly in scripture, Right, Like I think isn't it in the book of Acts when Peter, I think through the Holy Spirit, he basically kills a married couple, doesn't he? Because they sell their land but they keep the profits for themselves, or something like that.
Speaker 3:Well, they are struck down. You're talking about the story of Ananias and Sapphira, and they are struck down because they and what was happening was people in the church, and particularly the wealthier Christians in the church, were selling parcels of land and selling houses that they had and giving those proceeds to the church. They weren't, they weren't divesting themselves of all of their wealth, but they, what they were doing is identifying the needs in their, in that community and meeting them.
Speaker 2:And what?
Speaker 3:Ananias and Sapphira thought their conceit was that we will get credit or glory to be seen of the congregation by giving some money. And don't think we've given all the proceeds. So they actually keep half of it back and then give half of it, and but they pretend as though they're giving all of it. And so peter says why have you lied to the holy spirit? So they weren't, they weren't actually struck down for keeping half of it.
Speaker 2:Um that, would have been perfectly okay yeah, they were.
Speaker 3:They were struck down for lying about it. Okay, uh, yeah, yeah, you know, it acts, acts. A good, uh, a good contrast to these prosperity gospel Okay and rich and uh. It's not communism, but what they what the rich people were, the rich christians at least understood was that they had the ability to uh provide for the christians who were in need yeah, pulling their resources together, yeah yeah, as part of, as part of the kingdom, and they did so willingly um right so I guess we got to be careful that we don't jump to conclusions about christians who have, uh, more than us.
Speaker 3:Um, certainly it's.
Speaker 3:It's a vice and it's it's a temptation to just keep amassing things for ourselves and say look, god's been good to me, look all the all god's blessings and it's like well, you know it certainly could be a blessing, but this also could be a temptation in your life and it could actually keep you from doing things for the lord. You know it certainly could be a blessing, but this also could be a temptation in your life and it could actually keep you from doing things for the Lord. You know Satan, if he can keep you on the sidelines, he'll he'll give you a mansion. If he can keep you on the sidelines, that's cheap for him.
Speaker 1:And even, as you mentioned I think you mentioned this in our episode too, tim where he said also, the other side of the spectrum can also be equally as damaging, which is where, because I don't have a lot, yeah, because I don't have a lot, then that makes me more holy, because I'm giving everything to the ministry, to whatever, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that there's that side feels more self-righteous because they don't have a lot, and there's the other side that their whole, uh, goal is to become rich yeah, man, we got to do a part two about this because now there's so many other things coming to mind now too, um, because you know, like, with with catholicism and with, um, eastern orthodoxy, like a big part of it is like I need to suffer, right, and so you have, like, you know, people who become monks, right, they take vows of chastity and vows of of poverty and they go, you know, live up, up in a mountain, right and like you know, isolated from the rest of the world and, you know, just suffering, and so that would be something interesting to to cover, because, yeah, that's like something that like when I hear that I'm like, you know, that's really powerful, really powerful to hear.
Speaker 2:But like me personally as a lay person, like I, just I don't want to suffer really like, I want to live. I want to live a decent life, to be honest, right. So where do I fit in with all this? Like, do I need to get rid of everything and go live in the wilderness in order to be worthy of god's love and worthy of you know, heaven, or can you know, can I just like live you know, like just a regular, normal life, um, but uh, yeah
Speaker 3:it's something that um well, hey, since you, you know you brought sorry, I didn't mean no, no, no warns about. You know, in the latter days there are forms of asceticism that will crop up, that will tell people don't do this and don't do this and don't do this, as though that's a form of holiness and godliness.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:Paul says that's wrong too. He does tell us. You know, paul says this in his letters and Jesus says this. You know, jesus says a servant is not greater than his master. If they hated me, they're going to hate you. Who's they? They're those who resist the gospel. Paul says all those who desire to live a godly life will suffer persecution. Paul, and in his letters he describes all the things that he endured for the sake of the gospel. That is, getting the gospel out, yeah, into the world, and so for christians who are wondering like that is getting the gospel out into the world.
Speaker 3:And so for Christians who are wondering like do I need to go off in the mountains and live as a monk? And like self-flagellate and like whip myself on the back, If you try to live a godly life, and that is to be a faithful Christian, to be witnessing, to be selflessly loving other people and to be a faithful witness, that is, if someone says are you a Christian? Or they say like in our day and age, it's like, are you going to say the pronouns or not?
Speaker 3:If you live a faithful life. It's probably going to cost you at some point, and you need to be willing to accept the costs of discipleship. That's what that means. It's not a pointless suffering. The suffering is in the witness of the gospel that goes out into the world.
Speaker 2:Right Putting your money where your mouth is kind of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, being willing to, yeah, I guess, in extreme cases, yeah, maybe even lay your life down for your faith, right, but, yeah, guess, um, it's already been an hour so I won't take up too much of your time, but, um, yeah, I guess this whole thing, um, really what I think about it's I mean, we do have to, we need to have an authority right, um, like I'm somebody who, yeah, I'm very much against, like you know, this notion of like relationship over religion, like I, personally, I mean, yes, we, we all individually, have our personal relationship to, to christ, um, and all that, but, um, I do think we need to have authority right, um, to guide us. But then, yeah, that's where it gets tricky, right, because, yeah, we could be sold false teachings, and then it's like, okay, well, so I just have to accept everything. Then, right, if I want to be a good Christian, like I know myself as a Catholic, yeah, there's a lot that's part of Catholicism that you know, even like with when it comes to like sexuality. You know, there's like very firm, firm rules there, like with what a married couple can do in the bedroom, right, you know, in the privacy of their own home. So, yeah, it's like, ok, I mean, god allows free will.
Speaker 2:But then it's like, does the church allow free will or do I have to just accept everything that they tell me? So, yeah, it's just, it's very, it's very difficult to navigate right, like, and after having this experience of being in the cult, honestly it did make me question my faith, because I was like, okay, well, I had this cult telling me I need to just take their word for it. Maybe it's the same with you know, the Catholic church or any other church. It's like, oh, just take my word for it, but how do I know, right? So it's real tricky. Yeah, I'm kind of stuck in this mindset of like, okay, do I trust my authority or do I question it, right? So I don't know what's your guys' take on that Like, how do we Well, I would encourage you and your listeners to study the Bible.
Speaker 3:Study your Bible and know it, and this is not in conflict with even Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church encourages their people to study the Bible. Paul commends or Luke when he writes the book of Acts.
Speaker 3:He commends the Christians in the town of Berea, because when Paul came teaching them and telling them this gospel, they went back to the scriptures to check to see if Paul was telling the truth or not. Can you imagine that they're like who's this guy Paul Like, let's go crack open our Old Testament see if he's telling the truth about all these prophecies.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And now for us it's like oh, of course, yeah, the apostle Paul.
Speaker 3:But yeah, back then it's like who is this guy? Yeah, yeah, and you know, study takes a long time. Not everyone's going to be a seminary scholar you don't have to be but there's lots of resources out there. And just on the point about the cult and things like that, if something doesn't quite sound right, there's a good chance. It's not right, so go seek out the answers, and YouTube's a great resource for this. There's lots of great Christian podcasters and influencers out there that are giving sound teaching.
Speaker 3:You just kind of wade through the muck a little bit. And, yeah, go talk to your pastor or your priest and get some advice and counsel on the meaning of the scriptures. Of course, sam and I, of course, are Protestants and you're a Catholic, so we're gonna have different takes on some passages of scripture. But in general to bring it back to the first part of our episode about orthodoxy we believe in the core doctrines of the faith and those will ultimately bring you back to a faith in Jesus Christ and the true gospel and living out the true gospel.
Speaker 2:Well said. Yeah, there's a lot of good resources out there. Yeah, myself, as Catholic, like there's Catholic Answers, it's very popular. Yeah, there's a lot of resources out there. Um, and then myself I got, um, I got a copy of the catechism of the catholic church, which um was commissioned by um pope john paul ii, uh, which just it lays out kind of like okay, this is what the catholic church believes and why we teach these things. So kind of been reading that because, yeah, things will pop up and I'm like why, why do we believe that? Right? So I've been using that to kind of um yeah understand on a deeper level.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, a lot of times it's like, okay, yeah, there's, there's good reason behind that. So yeah for sure. Um, if you do some digging around, you can find good answers.
Speaker 2:Um but yeah, it's just, it's a constant, uh, it's constant effort right To um kind of accept authority, but then also, um, yeah, think for yourself. And I think that's where you know it's the perfect overlap with what you guys do, right, psychology and theology. Because, yeah, I mean, we're, we're all individuals and we, you know, we want to think for ourselves, but then, yeah, if we take it too far, then you know we become heretics or youetics or just believing something false, and we drift away from the faith. So, yeah, it's difficult territory.
Speaker 3:Can I leave you with a list? We did this in our episode on false teaching just to kind of help people understand. A false teacher or false teaching will seek to isolate you and there's safety in numbers. Not that we do truth by democracy, but the truth is like light that exposes the darkness and false teaching. Uh, we'll seek to isolate you and put you in darkness and, uh, the more people with, with light of the of the truth and the gospel and the scriptures, can expose false teaching. And so if you see a lot of people saying, hey, this guy's a problem, like, don't listen to that guy. Hey, he's a weirdo, it's a cult, it's a good sign. Hey, maybe I should at least hear them out to see what they're going to say. But yeah, some characteristics of false teachers or false teaching One refusing correction.
Speaker 3:They double down on their teaching. They're ambiguous or confusing in their language. Strong appeals to emotion, joking about sensuality or sexuality. Sowing division through quote-unquote new teaching. Denying church authority, like the authority of the scriptures or the authority of the church itself to discipline them for their new teaching. Secretive or elusive behavior. Uh, demeaning or cursing language toward believers. Uh, particularly their critics. That's, that's a, that's a sign of the demonic associating themselves with the apostles of the authority of scripture in some way, um appealing to their own authority instead of the scriptures, appealing to results-based ministry like look at, look at my huge crowd. What an anointing I have on the lord. Are you going to come against god's anointed?
Speaker 3:my fruits yeah, a preoccupation with money, braggadocious. They like to consolidate power in themselves? Uh, they have. They lack transparency and uh, they try to isolate believers from one another. So those are all characteristics if you see those things going on. Those are all red flags, yeah nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean pretty much everything you said. Yeah, that applies to my experience in the cult. Um uh well, is there anything else you guys wanted to add?
Speaker 3:uh well, we kind of go over time, so I won't. I won't talk anymore. Sam knows I can go on forever. Yeah, I'll kind of I'll force myself to stop, but uh, thanks for having us on man, it's been great yeah, this is really good thank you, ricardo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this and yeah, for sure we need to, yeah, have a part two, because so many other things came to mind. Um, and yeah, I'm also. I could talk about this stuff endlessly, um, but, yeah, I appreciate so much that you guys reached out in the first place. Um, I love what you guys are doing and, of course, I'll make sure to include links so that people can go check out your work um but yeah, we'll stay in touch and uh, thank you so much thank you bro.
Speaker 2:Thank you, man, have a good one. Yeah, have a good night guys.
