Ep. 42 - Integrating Faith, Coping Skills, and Psychological Tools for Emotional Well-Being

Master the art of conquering anxiety with faith as your anchor, where we unravel the complex dance between spiritual beliefs and emotional well-being. Imagine a world where anxiety is recognized as a universal human experience—one that can be managed effectively with the right understanding and tools. We explore the thin line between everyday anxiety and anxiety disorders, shedding light on how cultural and societal pressures, especially within the Christian community, can heighten these feelings. Through this discussion, we aim to equip you with a deeper understanding and validation of your emotions to foster healing and growth.

Join us on a journey through the transformative power of Christian-based coping skills that address the roots of anxiety. We delve into how attachment styles, shaped by early life experiences, impact our relationships and our connection with God. Discover how Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) can be a powerful ally in challenging false beliefs and reinforcing affirming truths, helping you build a healthier relationship with yourself and the divine. We also touch upon the nuanced role of medication and lifestyle changes, encouraging a holistic approach to managing anxiety.

Embrace the gradual process of overcoming anxiety, understanding that true change takes time and patience. We discuss the importance of implementing new disciplines and routines, and why it's crucial to allow your mind and body the time to adapt to these changes. Whether it's through small lifestyle adjustments or deeper therapeutic work, we provide practical advice and resources, like "The Anxiety Cure" by Dr. Archibald D. Hart, to guide you on your path. Remember, anxiety is not a sign of weak faith but a shared human experience, even amongst biblical figures. Join us for this insightful exploration and take the first step towards a more balanced life.

Chapters

• 0:02 Managing Anxiety as a Christian
• 6:39 Understanding Anxiety and Cultural Pressures
• 14:42 Christian Coping Skills for Managing Anxiety
• 24:18 Managing Anxiety in Christian Context
• 34:12 Journey to Overcoming Anxiety

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast. We are excited to start, not a new series, but something that's kind of related in this aspect of Christianity. Three big topics anxiety, depression and forgiveness. And today, in particular, we're going to be talking about how Christians can manage and deal with anxiety, and we'll look at a couple of different things normalizing it, defining it, what are some ways to cope with it and, yeah, just what does it look like in the life of a Christian? So, yeah, we're excited to be seeing that, to be talking about this, and we're also excited to be seeing more traction on our Instagram profile.

Speaker 1: 0:42

So, if you haven't followed us on Instagram, please do so Right now, as you're listening to us. Go to your Instagram and click on Psych and Theo it's psych underscore and underscore Theo and follow us there. Again, you'll get a lot of our clips and highlights from each of our episodes that I think will be helpful and follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So, yeah, so today we're going to be talking about anxiety. Tim, what do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 1:08

Very anxious about this episode, buddy. Yeah, all right. Yeah. So Sam, kick us off, tell us, let's define our terms. Apparently, from our feedback, people like it when we slow down and we define our terms first. So let's define what we mean. What is anxiety, or I guess? How is it defined? And then, how does it show up? How does it manifest?

Speaker 1: 1:31

Yeah, one of the ways to kick this off is just describing, as you mentioned, so it's kind of a natural emotional response to perceived threats or stressors. So just kind of breaking that definition down just a little bit. One, just the natural emotional response. So that kind of brings this normalization to that. We all experience anxiety, especially when we have threats or stressors in our lives. But the other key word there was also perceived, right, because there are things that you and I can look at and we may not see it as a stressor. You know, one of us may see it as a stressor and the other one may not, right? So that word perceived is very important when we're talking about anxiety, because we all have different experiences, different types of stressors in our lives, different stages of life, which brings with it different stressors. So those two are probably the key words there. So, natural it happens, we all feel anxiety in different ways.

Speaker 1: 2:32

And also perceived, right, this idea of perceived threats or stressors, because we all have different experiences that allow us to see some things as a big deal and some things not as a big deal, right?

Speaker 1: 2:44

So this often is displayed through worry, apprehension, fear, doubts, a lot of different ways, but it's very situational, so I guess that's a good place to start in defining what actually anxiety is. So, with that, one of the ways in which we can counter the effects of anxiety is really bringing this aspect of normalizing it in our lives, because I think we almost have gone to the other extreme, where everything is a big deal and everything is anxiety inducing and everything is a concern. A lot of future worries or concerns that we have doesn't allow us to be in the present and with mindfulness, which is one of the practices that we do for managing anxiety, is about being in the present and focusing on what's within your control right here, right now. But yeah, three benefits to normalizing anxiety I was thinking about this is one of the things that it does is that it helps, oh go ahead.

Speaker 2: 3:38

Do you want me to jump in? Can you explain for the audience what do you mean by normalizing it? Does that mean normalizing as in saying it's okay, normalizing it as in pointing out that everyone struggles with anxiety to some extent? So what do you mean by normalizing?

Speaker 1: 3:52

Yeah, I think both of those are exactly what we're referring to here. One it's okay, right, it's okay that you experience anxiety. That means that your nervous system is working right. This idea of it's telling me something's off and I need to address it right? Well, what happens typically when people feel anxious is that they go into the cycle of there's something wrong and therefore I need to go to the root of the problem and explore all these different avenues as to the many different things that can cause you anxiety, which could be finances, family, school if you're in school church, relationships, all these different things. So everything becomes a problem, right? So the idea of normalizing anxiety is that it's okay that you're feeling that and then realizing okay, what is causing me this anxiety, right? So, yeah, it's okay, we all experience it, and even that aspect of knowing that we all experience it almost encourages this level of openness. Like, if I know that you have experienced anxiety, it allows me to say, oh well, tim's experienced anxiety too. What makes him anxious? Oh, there's some overlap with some of the things that make both of us anxious Finances, preparing for the future, family, all these different things. So it makes you feel normal, right?

Speaker 1: 5:08

When people experience anxiety. One of the common tendencies is that they tend to think that they're the only ones who are experiencing it. Right, and you also have to look at different habits that people have and we probably touched on this before Tim where people who are constantly comparing themselves to others can experience a lot of anxiety. Right, because they feel they're not up to par with everyone else. They feel like there's still so much that they need to do, which puts them in a state of hurry, and they're constantly on the go career, family, whatever the case is, there is that element of it. So normalizing anxiety is that it's okay and that we all experience it Okay.

Speaker 2: 5:55

So I think what most people will think, though, is that, yeah, we all get anxious, but I think that some people will say but what about my anxiety disorder? Or maybe a question do I have an anxiety disorder? So can you explain what the difference between anxiety and an anxiety disorder, like social anxiety disorder or some of the others that we could cover in another episode, maybe, but what's the difference between just anxiety and an anxiety disorder?

Speaker 1: 6:24

over in another episode, maybe but what's the difference between just anxiety and an anxiety disorder? Yeah Well, it's funny that you mentioned that, because when students come in, they do come in with this preconception of I have this anxiety disorder. Like I have it, I'm anxious about everything. It's been more than six months. I've had it for all my life, like that's a common theme. So my question is always how does knowing that you have an anxiety disorder help you? And it just kind of makes them think a little bit about okay yeah well, how does it help me?

Speaker 1: 6:51

It just makes me aware of it, and one of the common misconceptions that we have with people who come in for mental health services is that they think that awareness equals healing and it doesn't. Everyone's aware of wants to become aware of what's wrong with them or how they can fix it, but what often is lacking is the action to follow that right. So with anxiety, it's like challenging certain unrealistic beliefs or false beliefs about themselves, about other people. They have all these beliefs, so them defining themselves as someone who has an anxiety disorder actually doesn't help them. So what I try to do is just what are the symptoms that are presenting themselves? And then we can work with that. And we'll often find a lot of different things where they're not sleeping, they're not eating right, they're not in community, they aren't challenging certain negative beliefs right now. But to your question, you say well, what's the difference between just having anxiety and an anxiety disorder? The first part is okay. First is there. Is there a benefit to you knowing whether it's one or the other? And some people might say, yes, okay.

Speaker 1: 7:58

So an anxiety disorder is the constant state of worry, of fear, of loneliness, isolation. Almost some overlap with depression, but that it's been happening for six months or more. Six months to a year is typically kind of the range that we look at, and that's it, and it's creating significant distress in your daily life, so much that it's affecting your daily activities, right? So you know people who can't go into social circles. They experience high levels of social anxiety, right. They can't speak, they stumble over their words, they feel awkward, all these different things. So those are just things that they become aware of. So, again, what I try to do is how has that been helping you to know that you have social anxiety disorder or just an anxious anxiety disorder, right? So, yeah, it's just working with the symptoms and normalizing it, as in reducing the stigma, validating feelings and just encouraging openness so that they realize that they're not alone in experiencing that.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Okay, All right. So what would be? What are some ways that cultural pressures contribute to anxiety? Let's start broadly just with people, and then we can kind of come back narrowly to like a Christian community. So what are some cultural pressures that contribute to anxiety?

Speaker 1: 9:20

I was talking to a professor about this not too long ago and one of the themes that came up was I kind of alluded to it earlier this constant state of needing to be where you have to be or you're supposed to be. Right, everyone always feels like they're falling behind or that they're where they're not supposed to be in their stage of life, because they're comparing themselves to someone else who's their age, someone else who's younger than them right, they're more successful. So that kind of puts the state of hurry and pressure on them to be a certain way or be in a certain stage of life when they're just not there right now. Right, worry is often caused by oh, what's the future going to hold? And it doesn't allow you to stay in the present. So if you're always thinking about man, well, when I get to this place in my career, then I'll be happy, right, the illusion of happiness if I hit this stage of life. Because they see other people there, right, they're comparing themselves to a life situation that a friend has, right, so there's that constant comparison too with those people. So there's pressure there, pressure to get to start a family, pressure to get married.

Speaker 1: 10:28

Right, we just finished the holidays, it was December, it was Thanksgiving, and in November, and what's the common question a lot of singles start sharing is that family starts asking me oh, when are you starting dating? Or oh, where's the girl? Or oh, where's the guy? Right, this pressure of needing to be in a relationship or starting a family is another piece of this School. If you're in school, and you've been in school for a long time, it's like, hey, so when are you going to finish that degree? So, on top of the pressure that you already put on yourself to do those things or to be in search of you, also have other members who are well-intended. You know, and that's the other part of it too, is that family doesn't mean to be to put more pressure on you, it's just, it's almost like an interest.

Speaker 1: 11:07

But also we feel that tension of, hey, let me work at my own pace, I'll get there when I get there, type of thing right. But yeah, people in general, I think, start to feel that and it's just again added pressure on top of the pressure we already put on ourselves. Um, what about the Christian community? Oh, christian community. So we see that and I want to get your thoughts on this as well. Is that for them it could be very much so. Family-oriented is usually a big one for them. But I actually just finished talking to someone and for them, the anxiety that they feel.

Speaker 2: 11:42

By family-oriented you mean like there's a pressure in the Christian community to be married, have children or to just be with family. Have a strong family yeah to be married, have children?

Speaker 1: 11:53

right, because most of our parents probably started pretty young, so anyone above 25, 30, and you don't have a family. There's this perception of are you doing something wrong or something's wrong with you, right? Kind of that feeling is what people tend to share is that you know they think something's wrong with me or I just want to be single, and maybe we become content in that too comfortable sometimes. But our parents are comparing it to the decisions that they made in their lives. So if they were married at 22, 23, they started their families pretty early. So they're thinking to themselves well, why haven't you done that? Most parents want that for their kids. They want to follow in the same footsteps, especially if they have a good family. But yeah, that pressure, how else can you replicate and you can touch on this as well Can you model that relation between Christ and the church? Right, the marriage covenant? You know why? Wouldn't you want to be married already, right? That type of thing too? Or maybe your expectations are too high. Are you being too picky, right? Then it becomes a shaming component to that as well. So there's all those different types of pressures that seem well-intended but they have different effects, and again, there are things that we can accept. There are some things that I don't need to make a big deal about.

Speaker 1: 13:12

When family makes comments like that, in my head I'm thinking to myself okay, they're making comments, I get it, anyone would ask. But when someone says, and this is how they add to their anxiety, oh my gosh, they keep putting pressure on me to get married and I'm not ready, blah, blah, blah. This and that Like that adds more anxiety. It adds more pressure because of the way that you're perceiving that right. So I think the way that we look at things needs to be remove that pressure of I'm not in control of what my family's going to say or what people are going to say. I'm only in control of my own thoughts, words and actions. So once you're able to bring the locus of control back to you as an individual, you can reduce a lot of anxiety.

Speaker 1: 13:52

Because, again, there's so many people, especially with the advent of social media is that we operate based on the assumptions or comments of other people about our lives and that's not a way to live your life. You know, and you know actually, tim, in one of our conversations you kind of hit on that and it just hit me too. I was like that's right, like why am I living for what people have to say about my life when they're not involved in my life? That doesn't make any sense, right? But that's kind of how a lot of Christians operate. Say, oh, what is so-and-so going to think, what is so-and-so going to think? And when you have so many voices on one topic that you haven't even processed yourself again, that anxiety starts to build and increase and make you more anxious.

Speaker 2: 14:38

All right. So what about this? So you mentioned personal relationships. What about attachment styles influencing anxiety? Can you maybe give us a really quick crash course on the attachment styles and how does that influence anxiety?

Speaker 1: 14:52

Sure, yeah, yeah. So attachment style obviously I talk about this on my other page God Attachment, healing but also, when we've talked about this as well, is this aspect of well, where do you get your attachment style from? And it really has to do with how your needs were met when you were a child and how do they continue to be met or unmet as you move into adolescence, young adulthood and so on, as you move into adolescence, young adulthood and so on. So for the person who has an anxious attachment style, for them it's been usually inconsistency in getting your needs met. So it could be where a parent did meet your needs sometimes and didn't other times, because life changes, right? Maybe they had to work, maybe there was a sickness in the family. So your needs now kind of get put to the side because there's other things that are more pressing, right, maybe they had to work, maybe there was a sickness in the family. So your needs now kind of get put to the side because there's other things that are more pressing, right?

Speaker 1: 15:42

So in your mind, as a child, you don't understand all those shifts and changes. So the body starts to experience that and it just realized that, hey, sometimes my needs were met and sometimes they're not being met and I don't know why exactly. And then there's this question of is it because of me? Did I do something wrong, like what happened here? Right, it can't really be my parents' fault, because they're good and they love me, so it can't be their fault. So I must have done something wrong.

Speaker 1: 16:09

So as you get older and you move into young adulthood, into those types of relationships within the church romantic relationships you're questioning all of those different things Like am I doing something wrong? You over-evaluate every single situation and the only person at fault in your mind is you right. If something's wrong in your walk with the Lord, immediately your thought is well, it can't be God's fault, so it has to be my fault. Am I doing something wrong? So now it moves into this very ritualistic behaviors that are going to draw you closer to God, or feel like they'll draw you closer to God. So you start to hyper-focus on Bible reading, on prayer, on seeking community, which are all good things, right, but for the anxiously attached person it's never enough right. They could be reading their Bible every day, praying every day, seeking community every day, and still at the end of the week they'll think to themselves gosh. It's just not enough, right? So that's a common phrase too.

Speaker 2: 17:10

When you say not enough, do you mean like they feel distant from God?

Speaker 1: 17:13

Yeah, they feel like why would God love me? You know I'm here doing all that I can, but it's so selfishly motivated, like I'm doing this out of selfish reasons, like I just want the Lord to love me, and I feel that that's so selfish, right. And if you look at that, if you take a step back and look at that, you'd think to yourself wow, how could they think that they're really wanting to honor the Lord? But in their mind it's never good enough. They always feel like they're always missing the mark. And again, going back to childhood, they just never knew what the actual reason was for how they were feeling right.

Speaker 1: 17:45

So they easily translate that over to their relationship with God. It's just am I doing something right? Should I be doing more? That's a common question too. Should I be doing more? Should I be going to more services? Doing some go to a mission and help out there, like it's never enough, and they think that by doing more that they'll earn God's love and God's favor in that. So that's how you see attachment kind of play out in relationships and the relationship with God.

Speaker 2: 18:12

All right, so that's really insightful. So let's get into then, like, what are some research-based coping skills Christians can utilize to manage anxiety. So what does the research show? And then maybe what does the Sam Landa experience tell us as a counselor?

Speaker 1: 18:31

Yeah, yeah, the most research-based way to counter anxiety is CBT, so cognitive behavioral therapy. Most Christian counselors kind of reference that because Christians understand it right, the idea of challenging false beliefs or things that are untrue, things that are not in the present. Right, staying in the present. Every day has its own worries, just worry about today, type of thing. So you get untrue beliefs or untrue thoughts that people have and you start to challenge them in session, right? So an untrue belief could be I'm unworthy Unworthy of what I'm unworthy of God's love. I mean, look at my past, all my past. I've lived a life of sin. I made a lot of bad decisions, I was disobedient to my parents. You know why? Would God? God forgive me, right? So the core message under all of that is I'm unworthy, okay. So we start challenging. Okay, are you really unworthy? Like, what does god's word say about you as a person? Oh well, I'm made in god's image, but still, what does that mean? You know, what does that mean for me? Okay, so you're made in god's image, so build on that. What does it mean for you to be made in god's image, that he loves you and cares for you and that you are chosen? You're chosen right. He chose you to be a son. You're a believer now. So slowly you start working through challenging beliefs. The unworthy one is a hard one to work through because it's also a physical experience. Like that person can't believe those words unless they're experiencing that along with the counselor. So strong therapeutic alliance is the experience of a person with a counselor and then challenging those beliefs. Because again, when you, when you grew up in a, in a setting or home environment that's unsettling or that's inconsistent, you may not be able to make sense of it in your mind, but your body is still taking note of how you're feeling physically. So people who are in those types of environments just feel anxious. They don't know. There's a lot of uncertainty. Maybe they had an explosive father, so sometimes he was really nice and sometimes not. Or a demanding mother. Mom expected a lot but at the same time she shamed them that they should be doing more. So even though in their minds at that stage of life they weren't able to make any sense of it, their body is still experiencing the anxiety levels and how their body felt right. So if they can come into a counseling session and not feel judged and not feel like they're being demanded from or not feel like they're being lectured at, then that helps their body kind of. Oh, this is what it feels like not to be judged or not to be in that constant state of anxiety which allows them to now, ok, I can grab this thought. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but it's them challenging. The thought is also aligning with how their body feels, that it feels safe, it feels secure, it feels able to challenge those beliefs, right? So CBT is a very common approach for a lot of Christian clients and for a lot of Christian counselors. They also utilize mindfulness and meditation.

Speaker 1: 21:36

So this idea of focusing on the present right, the past can't change that Made bad decision. Okay, we accept it, and we know that we can't change that. Well, I'm experiencing the consequences of those decisions now. Okay, so we can sit with that here. Tell me about that. What are you currently going through? That's been a consequence from those decisions? But again, the focus is on the present. But some clients may jump to. Well, you know what? If this impacts me in the future? Well, we don't know. Right, the Lord is healing you now. We don't know what it's going to look like a couple months from now, years from now, right. So mindfulness meditation is about really keeping them in the present, and just some other ones that are very important that we often overlook, and we've talked about this.

Speaker 1: 22:26

The idea of physical activity right, some people just ignore that. Hey, you need sleep, you need to exercise and you need to eat. Well, right. If you're not doing those things, then you're going to feel a certain level of anxiety. For some and I don't personally recommend it just because I'm biased towards drinking coffee Right, but for some people, drinking coffee makes them more anxious. You probably should cut back a little bit on the coffee. And again, that's been told to me before and I just ignore that one, so it just is what it is, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:53

But I do deep breathing and generally I haven't been able to do a lot of journaling yeah but I do deep breathing and generally I haven't been able to in the category of internalization.

Speaker 2: 23:18

In the video I guess a mental health professional was explaining how she tells clients don't say I have anxiety, say I am anxious about something, because when you say I have anxiety or my anxiety, you make that part of your identity. Can you go into that a little bit and explain on a deeper level what that is? Because that when you sent me that video that's what sparked me my response was well, isn't anxiety just a response to like a threat or a danger?

Speaker 2: 23:49

so like all of us. All of us have some sort of like natural anxiety response system. But let's get into a little bit of just the internalization or identification of anxiety with me as a person. So why is it better to say I am anxious about X Y, z as opposed to my anxiety, or I have anxiety?

Speaker 1: 24:16

No, that's a great question, tim. Um, this kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier about is it helpful to know that you have an anxious, an anxiety disorder any of the different ones, right? Social anxiety, generalized anxiety, whatever the case is, is it helpful? And I think the reason why that question is important, because we make it part of our identity.

Speaker 1: 24:36

You know my anxiety that really isolates you from everyone else, like it's only you who has this very particular type of anxiety, right, my anxiety, you know. So that's something that's not shared, it's just yours, it's personal and it makes you almost feel alone. So no one else is experiencing my level of anxiety, right, and it could be very specific to a situation, but again, it's that isolating component to it and the difference with saying I'm feeling anxious, that's something that all of us can relate to, right? We've all felt anxious. So it kind of creates this open space of hey, I felt that way before too, and I know other people feel anxiety too. So it opens up the space for that.

Speaker 1: 25:25

It doesn't just make it a thing about you, it makes it a common human experience and that's not to say that to minimize the situation that you're in that's causing you a lot of anxiety. It's not to say that. But you feeling anxious or feeling very anxious is describing a very real thing that's happening right now, in the present. When you say I am anxious, or my anxiety right, or my anxiety disorder, you're taking that on as an identity. So that's past, present, future. A lot of people who feel that that's their disorder, that they can never change that. But if I say I'm feeling anxiety, then the next day or the next week I'd say you know what? I'm not feeling anxious anymore because you're practicing maybe some of these techniques that we've been discussing. So it kind of separates you from the identity of it and just accepts it. As this is a very real feeling, god created us to feel these things. Again, it's noticing a perceived threat or stressor in your environment. So that's normal, it's necessary for us to feel anxiety.

Speaker 2: 26:39

All right. So this question is a little bit of a curveball. What about the place of medications in managing anxiety, even if temporarily? Is there any place for even for the Christian? Is there a place for medications to help manage anxiety?

Speaker 1: 26:56

Yeah, yeah, medications to help manage anxiety, yeah, yeah, and actually. So I'm going to take a line from Tim here. So I'm going to recommend the book. It's called the Anxiety Cure. It's by Dr Archibald Hart and he has a really good chapter in here about that where he talks about, you know, for anxiety. He's not opposed to.

Speaker 1: 27:17

This was in 99, so it's a little bit older, but it kind of shows you the idea of how we see things throughout time. So at that time people still had this stigma of Christians shouldn't be taking medication, and what he's saying is like I agree, but I think it's important that you could take medication early on to just stabilize things in order for you to be able to counter these negative thoughts and feelings that you're experiencing. Again, sometimes the body just needs to be in a relaxed state to be able to do what it needs to do, such as challenging certain beliefs and thoughts about yourself, being able to relate or present. If you're experiencing social anxiety disorder, make friends. Whatever the case is, sometimes the body just needs to feel calm and relaxed and some of these medications that they recommend can be helpful for that right. But his follow-up is. But you still need to do the other work of creating close relationships, challenging those beliefs, trusting God throughout the process. So he does have a spiritual, integrative component in in the book as well. Um, so all those things are important.

Speaker 1: 28:23

And to go back to kind of how I approach this as well is that whenever someone experiences that anxiety or depression, we're looking at all the other things first right, okay. So how's? How's the physical piece? Are you exercising, are you eating? Are you eating well? Are you sleeping well? Right, those are big factors there.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Then the relationships, then the emotional piece, right. Then the spiritual piece, and then, if we check all of those and we try different techniques for those and nothing's changing a lot, then, okay, medication, let's see if medication helps with that. But we've already given the person enough tools that once they do take the medication, they're practicing all of that and the medication piece right. So again, most counselors Christian counselors will tell you one of our biggest frustrations is that in the mental health field, the number one recommendation, even before doing some of the work, is hey, take this medication so we can get you in that space first, and then we do the work. Again, christian counselors are kind of split on this, but I think more land where I am, where we want to do all the other work first and then we'll look at medication. So we refer them to a psychiatrist or psychologist to do that work.

Speaker 2: 29:36

Okay, all right. So any final thoughts or final words of advice for our brothers and sisters who might be experiencing high levels of anxiety?

Speaker 1: 29:47

Yeah, yeah, one is I know that having anxiety can have a huge influence on faith and doubt, right, that because you're experiencing anxiety, that for some reason you feel that you may not be having enough faith, right, and because you don't have enough faith, then you start to doubt whether God's real in your life or if you're really allowing him to take control of what's going on in your life, right? So there's this shaming piece that comes in with that. Whether it be because of your church or maybe some comments that other people have made, right, it can make you really feel like a bad Christian because you're experiencing anxiety. And again, if I go back to my first point, is that if we normalize that and we say you know what, everyone experiences anxiety I mean characters, people in the Bible experience anxiety. Right Now, it doesn't describe the whole scope of it, but they experienced some situations where I think anyone would feel anxious. So, again, we go back to normalizing. Okay, everyone experiences this and they may have some challenges with their faith or doubt, right?

Speaker 1: 30:53

Another piece is just this fear of the future, right, what's going to happen tomorrow, next week, if I make this decision now? You know how's that going to impact everything else, and though it's good to think about the future and consider, obviously, the decision that you're making today, we can't predict what's going to happen right. Life changes, life is dynamic and we don't have control over all of that. The only thing we have control over is trusting God in the midst of all those changes that may happen. But to kind of ask you in return, tim, what are some things that you see for Christians who do struggle with anxiety? That, yeah, what would you recommend? You know being taking a theological standpoint of what do you see with Christians that they struggle with when it comes to anxiety and how can they deal with it in that regard, oh, that's a tough one, you know.

Speaker 2: 31:47

My default, I think, response is the New Testament talks a lot about the reorientation of the mind. That's a very deliberate, continued, habitual focus on things. In the ethics world we call it virtue ethics. So you take little actions every day to develop habits and then those habits form character traits in you which are called virtues. And in the New Testament there's a lot of places where Paul, at the Apostle Paul specifically, in a lot of his letters he starts listing out these virtue lists. The fruit of the Spirit is one of them.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Philippians chapter 4 is another one where he says whatsoever is true, whatsoever is good, whatsoever is lovely, and he lists out eight or nine things and then he says if there's any, if there's good report, if there's any praise, think on these things. And then he follows it up by saying what you have heard and seen in me, do, and then the god of peace will be with you. So in Philippians 4, if you read this whole passage, it's Philippians chapter 4, like 4 through 9. He talks about don't be anxious for anything but through prayer and supplication, give thanks. And then it goes on with this virtual list.

Speaker 2: 33:14

So a lot of people think, oh well, if I just you read that passage and then you're like, okay, I'll just think on these things and then I'm supposed to have peace automatically. And I don't think that's what Paul is saying. It's a process, it's a habit, it's something that we have to cultivate over time, and I'm not saying it's easy or even that I've somehow done that. I haven't, but it's um. I think that's what the new, the picture that the new testament shows us, is a um, a continue. It's a continual discipline of the focus of the mind prayer.

Speaker 1: 33:53

That's good. That's good, bro. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, because I mean we see Christians who want to know that and then they also want to know that clinical piece. So hopefully they got a good combination of both.

Speaker 1: 34:06

But, yeah, a lot of emphasis on renewing the mind and finding peace. And I like what you said about the process, that when you implement these things, these disciplines, that it's a process, it's not just one day. Some people have that miraculous thing and I know you've heard that before where it's like, yeah, once I did this, everything changed after that. But that's not everyone's journey. Take time, that you've been experiencing anxiety for a very long time and that's all your body's ever known. So when you're trying to do something different, it needs some time to adjust to those differences. So if you try any of these things, you know a couple of days it's probably not going to have the impact that you think it's going to have. Give it a couple of weeks, at least two to three weeks, right. And if you do that consistently, I think you'll start to see a small shift in how you think and maybe even in how you feel.

Speaker 1: 35:00

Okay, but, yeah, great topic. Hopefully this was helpful. No final comments. Questions Tim. So yeah, recommendation just again. If you do want to look up a book, the Anxiety Cure is a good one by Dr Archibald D Hart. All right, guys. Well, we'll see.