Psych and Theo Podcast
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 41 - Exploring How Your Attachment Style Influences Your Relationship with God
What if your attachment style could shape not just your human relationships but your spiritual connection with God? Join us for a transformative episode with Sam Landa, a licensed professional counselor and educator, who shares his personal journey into understanding God attachment. Influenced by his upbringing, including the impact of his parents' divorce, Sam reveals how these experiences molded his attachment style and his relationship with the divine. Together, we uncover the powerful intersection of psychology and spirituality, offering listeners insights into recognizing and reshaping their attachment dynamics for a more meaningful spiritual life.
As we navigate the complex realm of God attachment styles, we examine how childhood experiences affect our faith practices and interactions with God today. From secure to disorganized attachment, Sam and I explore how these styles manifest in our spiritual lives, drawing parallels with Biblical figures like Jonah, Moses, and Job. Through this engaging exploration, we illuminate how life's stressors can unveil these patterns, proposing pathways to healing and strengthening one's connection with God.
Dive deeper into the nuances of intimacy and obedience in a spiritual context as we contrast the use of "Abba, Father" with historical perspectives on divine connection. By differentiating between the "God image" and "God concept," we discuss the balance of tradition and personal engagement in one's relationship with God. Finally, we explore how upbringing and personal experiences profoundly influence religious attachment, offering a pathway to healing and a stronger divine connection. Don't miss this enriching conversation that blends psychological insights with theological wisdom to enhance your understanding of faith and spirituality.
To learn more about Cassian Bellino and her podcast, check out her information below:
Cassian's Website: https://www.bibspeak.com/
Bio:
Cassian Bellino is the passionate host of Biblically Speaking, a podcast born from her personal journey of seeking clarity in Scripture. Over the past year, Cassian has turned her questions and curiosity into a thriving platform that has reached over 70,000 followers. She’s had the privilege of hosting renowned guests such as Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. John Walton, Pastor Douglas Wilson, and Ken Ham, creating conversations that bridge faith, reason, and a deeper understanding of the Bible.
When she’s not hosting interviews or building community, you can find Cassian inspiring others to connect scripture to daily life and faith. Join the conversation and explore her work: Resources: https://stan.store/biblicallyspeaking Website: https://www.bibspeak.com/
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All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast. This is another episode that we recorded with a friend of ours, ms Cassian Bellino, and on this episode she interviewed me and we had a great discussion on God attachment and it was really good. I think everyone just enjoys hearing about how they attach to people, how they relate to people, but the real cool thing about God attachment is how that translates over, obviously, into our relationship with God. So she has some great questions. We had a great discussion and I hope that you guys enjoy it and, as always, remember to follow us on Instagram. We're at psych underscore and underscore Theo on Instagram, and you can also email us at psychandtheo at gmailcom If you have any questions. You can find us on iTunes, on Spotify and Apple podcast, and leave us a review. We'd love for you to follow the podcast.
Speaker 1:We talk a lot about many different topics and in the next couple of weeks we're going to be releasing episodes on how Christians can manage or deal with their anxiety and with depression and what are some healthier ways of coping with them you know, still having a biblical approach or how a Christian would handle it and Tim's going to talk about the forgiveness, of how Christians need to receive and extend forgiveness to others, and so on. So, again, thank you for following the podcast and also, if you want to learn more about your God attachment healing or your own relationship with God, you can follow my page at God attachment healing on Instagram and I have a lot of videos there putting out a lot more content this month and next month. And, yeah, you guys will learn a lot about your attachment style there. So, without further ado, enjoy our conversation.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello everybody, welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host Today. I'm so excited to have Sam Landa on my podcast. If you follow me on Instagram, you would have known that he's been on my live a couple times and we were discussing attachment theory. Because you're a psychologist, you're a licensed counselor, a licensed professional counselor, which I'll get into your bio in a second.
Speaker 2:But just the topic of attachment style. You typically think of that of like your ex and how are you attached to them, or the attachment style you have to your parents and how that influences modern day relationships. But you blew my mind on the live when you were saying what is your attachment style to God? So I'm so excited that we've dedicated an hour now to explore all of that topic further and just to give you a proper introduction, sam, you are a licensed professional counselor. You're based in the East Coast. You teach undergraduate psychology courses at Liberty University. You've taught at every level of education, starting from middle school through the graduate level. You have online teaching courses, residential psychology courses and right now you're working on your doctorate degree as a counselor, education and supervision. You have research. You're writing a dissertation on this topic and you also host two different podcasts, one being Psych and Thea with Tim Yance and another as God Attachment Healing, which I had the privilege of being on yesterday. I'm so excited for that episode. We had a really great conversation, but welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I'm excited. I mean anytime we could talk about attachment, I'm down for it. I mean this has been on my mind since, like I started graduate school. I think I shared a little bit with you on my podcast about just my mentor. I mean that was kind of how he, what he did his dissertation on, and basically just talking with him and having chats about attachments. So it just became like a lane for me to stay in and then just find different avenues to attach to.
Speaker 2:So you would say, while you were in your graduate level research, you found a counselor, a teacher that was really helpful for you to understand what your attachment style was, just to yourself, to your partners, to your parents and even to God. And from there is when you started focusing on attachment style in a spiritual sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, once he introduced God attachment style to me, it just made a lot of sense of how I related to God, because it was very much based on my relationships with my parents, my relationship with my authority figures. It was very distance, respectful oriented, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit, but I missed the relational piece, part of it. So the anxious person that's kind of who I was. Everything was out of my control. My parents got divorced when I was 17. So that shook me a little bit. So everything that I had as a secure base was not a secure base anymore. So then I was trying to grab onto things that would give me some sense of security, and a lot of that was accomplishing stuff and just trying to do and be the best for everything or everyone else. That's kind of where it started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a pretty big goal. So what were you studying prior to kind of focusing on attachment theory?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't have anything that I was focusing on. I mean, I was just interested in learning about everything. But because I was so close to that professor we just slowly started to, he started to invest time in me and I started to kind of pick up on what he was sharing. So it just makes sense to me and it's just kind of stuck with me ever since.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure that this has really affected every avenue of your life. When you now like look through the lens of you, know what is our attachment style.
Speaker 1:Yes, very much so, Everything that I do, and look at any.
Speaker 2:Well, kind of the background. Do you want to give like a quick synopsis on exactly what happened that got you to focusing so much on attachment theory? Yeah, so like the story of you and your counselor right actually.
Speaker 1:So he was my professor when I first entered graduate school and he was so I had three professors and two of them I still know to this day got very close with them. But he kind of took this mentorship, discipleship approach with me where when I became his GSA and TA, so graduate assistant, teaching assistant, he really just kind of poured his life into me. So he really he asked me one time he said, sam, what do you want to do in the future? Like, what's your big goal with coming to graduate school and seeking this degree and so on. And I was like you know, it seems that I've just always been the teaching realm, like I taught middle school students, I taught high school students, I like working with graduate students and undergrad students. And he said, so you want to teach? I think so, yeah, that's what I want to do. He's like, ok, well, prepare a lesson and in three weeks you can teach a class. I'm like what? So that's kind of how he introduced me to just the classroom experience at the graduate level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was crazy. I was just so surprised that he wanted me to have that experience. So I took that and, yeah, I mean my love for teaching, for being in the classroom working with students, it really grew from there. So I've been teaching ever since. That was in 2012, 2013. And so, yeah, yeah, so I've been there for for many years and the attachment piece was me trying to understand the, the way I related to others.
Speaker 1:Obviously you mentioned kind of whether you with romantic partners or friendship, parents or people in the church, and I was just always filled with this overwhelming machine and feel like never getting things right. So I was an over performer, like I wanted to do things. I didn't think about it like that when I was doing it for me, it was just I was just seeing the real. That was my mentality. So I kind of operated that way, but I didn't see anything about it. But when it started to become an issue in actual relationships and friendships, I realized that something was off. And then started to become an issue in actual relationship and friendship. I realized that something was off and then I noticed the same thing in my relationship with god is that I try to keep all the rules in order for me to be good enough pleasing for god.
Speaker 2:So that just kind of led me into trying to understand it more and more okay, wow, that is quite a realization when you're kind of like I'm anxiously attached to you, know, and I feel like I've experienced an anxious attachment just some prior relationships where it is this, you know, eagerness for closeness, for intimacy, for honesty, and to feel like you're never really going to get enough of it or that you're not deserving of it. Am I understanding that correctly?
Speaker 1:understanding that correctly. Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect description of it. I mean, the person who is anxiously attached wants to be the best that they can, but even if they are the best, they still feel like it's not enough. They still feel like they're missing the mark and therefore continue. Kind of people pleasing behaviors. Right, in this case it was God pleasing behaviors. What pleases God. Me going to church three times a week. Me going to this church event over here. Me going to home group me being serviceable. Me going to church three times a week. Me going to this church event over here. Me going to home group me being serviceful me going to every service opportunity.
Speaker 1:All of those things for me was like if I do these things, then God will see me in a better light, right? And we do that with people too. If I do A, b and C, then this person will fully accept me. If I don't mess up, then this person will really love me, right? So we kind of carry on those same patterns in both relationships.
Speaker 2:And just to kind of like compare it, having more secure attachment to God would be, you know, doing the things that you actually want to do, not the things that you're supposed to do. Or I want to say like, have boundaries with God. But if I was to have a secure relationship with someone to be like, well, I can't come to you at every beck and call, like, I have boundaries, I need to go to bed early, or I have, you know, I have to work out so with God, what would those boundaries, in a secure attachment style to God, what would be? Some examples of those?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so. So one way I like to break it down is kind of having this quadrant, or different views of people and different views of God. So think about it this way the securely attached person has a high view of self and a high view of others, meaning that they overall have a positive view of themselves, good self-esteem, they understand themselves, they are able to reflect well, can regulate their own emotions. So that's a securely attached person. And they also believe that about other people. But that stems from their childhood experiences where if their parents were able to meet their needs, then it would make sense why they would trust that people are, in general, good and that in general, people can meet their needs right. So they have a positive view of people and a positive view of themselves. So that's a securely attached person. An anxiously attached person has a high view of others, negative view of self. Right, so people are better than me. People you know, they're so much smarter, they're so much.
Speaker 1:Needs were met inconsistently. They never knew if they really hit the mark right. So maybe on some days mom or dad was able to meet a need, but on other days not so much. Maybe mom promised some things or dad promised some things and sometimes they got it and other times they didn't right. So they never really know. Is it because of me that I do something wrong, that I didn't receive that gift or I didn't receive that love or care? So they start to view themselves negatively. But it can't be, mom or dad that messed up.
Speaker 1:It can't be my authority figures that messed up, so it must be me. So positive view of others, negative view of self, the avoidant attachment style they would see themselves in a positive light and would see others in a negative light, right? So I had to depend on myself in order to meet these goals. In order for me to do well in school, I just became super dedicated. I didn't need anyone, it was pretty much all up to me and I made it work, right. So they've learned that they can't depend or trust other people. So avoidance typically. They didn't have their needs met, so they couldn't depend or trust other people. So avoidance, typically. They didn't have their needs met, so they couldn't trust their primary caregivers, right? They never trusted anyone that would be in their circle because everyone was doing their own thing or people were distracted or everyone was working right. So they kind of learned to fend for themselves. So, in that sense, because they've had to do it for so long, why would I depend on anyone else when I've been doing these things on my own right? So they develop a sense of avoidance of close relationships, like they can communicate with people and attach to people in a way that works for them, but they're not going to be intimate or vulnerable or close with that person. For them it's really kind of again, positive view of self, negative view of others. Others are going to hurt me. I'd rather not go through that hurt, so I'll just kind of depend on myself, right? And then, lastly, the disorganizer, or the fearful avoidance.
Speaker 1:This person typically has experienced some significant trauma, so sometimes they feel anxious, other times they feel avoidance, other times they just don't know what to feel. They can't regulate, they can't. They don't have any self-awareness, right? So this is just someone who not only did they not have their needs met, but they were probably abused in some way, shape or form, you know, because the impact of trauma is not just when you are abused, but it's also when significant needs are withheld or not provided. So this person grows up learning I can't trust anyone, but I want to trust someone, but I can't. What if they break my heart? What if they are not able to meet my needs? Is it my fault? Is it because of me? So they have this constant battle in their mind where it's a negative view of self and a negative view of others, right? So that's kind of the overall perspective of attachment styles, in the way that they view themselves and the way that they view other people.
Speaker 1:And again, just take that same template and apply that to God. If their relationship with their parents was that they never met their needs and that they had to depend on themselves, an avoidant person, an avoidant attachment to God, would look like someone who says you know, I believe in God, but you know, I got to where I am because of the things that I've done. I mean, I'm really smart, I'm really this, I am very competent. So all of these things that I have, yeah, god's good and he's given me some, but I've also worked hard for it, right? So this is the person who doesn't really have anyone to depend on, so they only understand them doing the work to get the results that they want. So I know God and I believe in God, but I don't trust him enough to be vulnerable and intimate and seek a relationship with him.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that would be the avoidance. So it's more of like a lack of faith and vulnerability and intimacy. And then there was also anxious. So that was anxious was. I'm sorry, I'm like, my mind is slipping. That would be the lower view of myself and the higher view of others. I'm sorry, I'm like my mind is slipping.
Speaker 1:That would be the lower view of myself and the higher view of others Exactly Like why would God love me? What do I have to give to God? Right? Who am I in this, in this world? Right? So God is great, I love you know, he's a great person, he loves and he says he loves me, but I'm not lovable. Right, because no one in their world has shown them that they're lovable and they have that negative view of themselves already. So they see God, they respect God, they understand that God is good, but they don't really experience that with him.
Speaker 1:because of their anxious attachment style, they don't have a level of consistency to believe that. Right, this is a person who could read scripture that talks about God's goodness and about his presence and about his faithfulness and all of those things, and they could see it and read it and believe it, but they don't feel like they're worthy to experience that with God. So, gosh, they become anxious. They feel like it's about them.
Speaker 2:This reminds me of the conversation we had yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I realize now how much I told you yesterday on the podcast.
Speaker 1:You're like anxious attachment Got it Okay, keep going.
Speaker 2:So now, secure attachment with God. What would that look?
Speaker 1:like Okay. So secure attachment with God would be okay. I'm worthy of love. You know, my parents have shown me that they can meet my needs. My needs will eventually be met, even though right now it doesn't look like it. But because I know that God is faithful and because I know that he is good, and because I know that he is just at the right time, he will give me what I need right.
Speaker 1:So this is a person who could be going through a time of suffering, but because they have such consistent behaviors of people meeting their needs, it's an easy leap to read scripture and see those verses that talk about God's goodness, his faithfulness and his providence and believe it, because that's all they've ever experienced. So they have a high view of God, positive view of God and a positive view of themselves. They don't see themselves as unworthy. They understand the biblical aspect of being a sinner, but they don't see themselves as, oh, God would never love me. They say no. God says in his word that he loves me. I believe it, I've experienced it and I know that he's used people in my life to show me how much he loves me. It could be my parents. It could be a best friend. It could be a pastor, it can be anyone in their life, but they see the world through this secure lens of God loves me and the way that he's demonstrated that to me is through these people in my life.
Speaker 2:That is absolutely mind blowing, but you've just mapped that out so well. So, thank you, sam. Was this like so mind blowing for you when you realized this and you like put this down in words? I mean, just in your field was this kind of revolutionary? Or like, what was the response when you kind of put this together, because I've never heard this before?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it was the first time I had heard it with my professor and I was just shocked. I was like, yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense, right, like as we're talking about it, yeah, that makes sense. Like if all I've ever experienced is fear and disappointment in my relationships. Why would I believe that God is trustworthy, you know, if I don't have any real life examples of what trustworthiness is, how can I make that lead to just reading scripture and believing it? Now, there are the examples of people who have, through the Holy Spirit, have been convicted of sin and then they learn to depend on God, because obviously now we have the spirit of God living inside of us. So God awakens us to those things.
Speaker 1:But the majority of life is our experiences with people. Right, we're made to be in community when we're made in God's image. God in his being is a triune God. He's Father, son, holy Spirit, right, so he's a community within himself. So when we read that we're made in God's image, it makes sense why we so desperately seek relationships. We so desperately seek acceptance and completeness, because that is God's nature. He is complete and fully understands himself as a trinity, as the one right, his oneness. So all of those things, it makes sense why we relate and why we seek that community so much.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love the way you just put that, sam is that God is his own community of Father, son and Holy Spirit. You know he has this triune of like a fun group of three and with that we already have, you know, three people that we can be in community with. I mean, you know, just me and my three best friends like that's a good time, and with those people I want the most secure, trusting, loving relationships with. So when we approach God, we are technically, yeah, approaching our quote unquote best three friends and coming to them in what type of relationship style, what type of communication style and how do we view them?
Speaker 2:You mentioned something about, like the father, you know, understanding God as a father. This concept, you know, is tough, I think, because God is so many things he's a protector, he's a provider, he's a father, he's a friend and, you know, is tough, I think, because God is so many things he's a protector, he's a provider, he's a father, he's a friend and, you know, as an early Christian, it's kind of hard to imagine that in one person there's not typically one person that plays all of those roles for us, but as a father. You pointed out that this is kind of a new concept when it came to the Israelite culture that prior to Christianity and Jesus, you know, seeing God as the Father was new. It wasn't something that they typically did. Could you kind of give us some background on that topic?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and let me preface that and I know we've talked about it before your audience as well is that my background in specialization is in counseling and psychology and attachment theory and so on. So I'm not a biblical scholar, but I can read scripture and try to gain an understanding of what's happening in the text and so on. Actually, there's a really good book and even I think it's how to make the most of reading your Bible. I have it over here somewhere, but that it's a really good demonstration of how to read through scripture and see it and make observations and so on. So, with that being said, one of the observations made about this aspect of God as a father is that the words themselves.
Speaker 1:We see it in a couple of verses and I think I sent you some. So we see some in Isaiah, we see one in Jeremiah, some in Malachi, right. So I'll read some of these Isaiah 63, verse 16, for you are our father through Abraham, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us. You, o Lord, are our father. Our redeemer of old is your name. So we see a reference here from the prophet Isaiah mentioning this aspect of God, our father, right, 64, 8. For now, o Lord, you are our father, we are the slave, you are our potter and we are all of your hand. And now I can have we not all one father has not one god created us. Why then are we faithful to one another? Of our father? We see these references to god as our father, but probably what we see more often in the old is the children of god.
Speaker 1:The old testament kind of understood themselves, or the israelites that they were children of God, which would imply that God was their father, right. But we don't see that language as much in the Old Testament of them referring to him as father and remember that they would use a high priest to connect or to repent of their sins with God. Right, and that was, I think it was done once a year. So that was really their own connection with God. And just to make it quickly, and with Jesus he kind of breaks through all of that. He says now you can have a personal relationship with God through me, his son, which is why I came to earth. So now they have direct access to God. Which Hebrews, I think it's Hebrews 12. So they have direct access to God. Us modern day Christians have direct access to God At that time. They didn't.
Speaker 1:So the culture played a huge role in how they even saw their relationship with God. You know, god was the creator, he was the father, he was the one who provided for them, who made miracles right, who protected them. So you see that when they had to battle other nations and so on, so they understood all of that. But I don't know and again this is where my colleagues and scholar friends of Old Testament can't correct me but they didn't know or they didn't have that personal relationship individually with God as a nation. They had it with God, but I don't know if they were able to experience or if they experienced it relationally. So we have Abraham with God and we have all the fathers and so on that they had that, but they were representatives of God to the people, right? So that's an area where I think my friends and colleagues can speak to about. Yeah, I mean, did they experience God in the same way that we would today?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think you're just bringing up a lot of points. I mean, this is a discussion, you have an area of expertise. Thanks for showing me your limits. I mean there's no, I'm not trying to corner you into giving me a response, but like, if you think about it, there's the Israelites that are experiencing God through a priest or through a messenger, like Abraham or Moses, who are experiencing God in firsthand.
Speaker 2:And if you had a father that you only talk to through his secretary, like what kind of attachment style do you have with that father on earth? The same way, you know, like Moses or Abraham are experiencing completely different version of God because they're experiencing him in real time, they're speaking directly to him, and those are the lens of which, you know, the stories of the Bible are told. And then, if you kind of put it in a modern sense, we've got the way that we experience God today, which does feel much more disconnected. We have way more distraction. It seems like all three you know an Israelite through a priest, abraham, moses, those characters that experienced him in front of him, and then us today, with this bit of disconnect. If we're going to be honest, those are three different types of relationships. Those are three different attachment styles, just due to the level of closeness that's allowed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, that's a great point, but you know what? Another thing that we can add to this is think about when Moses or Abraham, when they would talk to the people right, let's pick Moses, for example. The people are seeing Moses' relationship with God, so they have a template, in a sense of oh, this is what it looks like. Right, yes, moses is representing us and he's speaking on God's behalf and on our behalf, but we're seeing what a relationship with God can look like. And similarly, today we can observe other people who have a relationship with God and say you know what I want? That the benefit that we have is we have direct access to God when we become saved through his son, jesus Christ. Right, so we have that. When we become believers, so we are able to learn how other people attach to God, and we can pick up on that and we say, oh, you know what I was missing. So, personally, what I was missing was the relational piece. I had a cognitive understanding of who.
Speaker 1:God was. I grew up in the church, I was taught scripture, I was taught doctrine, but I didn't have that personal relationship with Christ and that's what I saw in other people. I'm like, how do I get that? And you know, as we discussed a little bit, is that sometimes suffering is what kind of pushes us to seek God in a much more personal way. Right, and interestingly, one of the things that we learn about attachment is your attachment system is activated when you encounter a stressor within the relationship.
Speaker 1:Right, oftentimes I'll see people they'll say something like oh, I have a secure attachment style and I say, well, how do you know? And say, well, you know, we really get along great and you know everything's going well and this, this and that right Things are positive. But what happened when you guys have a conflict? Well, we haven't had a conflict, okay, well, you kind of have to wait till that happens because the conflict would be the stressor. So let's say they have a conflict and all of a sudden the person just kind of loses it. They feel anxious, they can't stop thinking about the problem that they're having, they want to fix it right away, but the other person doesn't want to right. That's when you see the attachment system activated. There needs to be a stressor within the context of the relationship for you to see what a person's attachment style actually is.
Speaker 1:So, similarly, in our relationship with God, you understand how your attachment to God is based on the stressor that you encounter. So, for example, let's say the loss of a child or the loss of a best friend right? So you lose your best friend. So there's two responses, maybe more right, but two typical responses could be god, why did you allow this to happen? This is the person that I love the most, is the person I've known for years, and now they're gone. You're not good anymore, right?
Speaker 1:So that would show and avoid an attachment style because they don't know the person, that God, who he is to them in their life. So they pull away A secure attachment would say Lord, I don't understand why this happened. I know that you have a purpose behind it, but right now I'm really hurting. Please comfort me. I don't know what to do with this situation, but I'm in a lot of pain and I need you to help me through this. Right, that's a secure response because they know that, even though something bad has happened in their life, god has been present and he has been faithful and committed to their good through him. So that's how you see there needs to be a stressor that activates how one chooses to attach to their, to their god or to other people in their lives is there an anxious example for that version?
Speaker 1:yeah, so an anxious attachment style could be what did I do wrong to deserve this lord? What did I do? Where did I?
Speaker 2:mess up.
Speaker 1:You decided to take away my, my best friend, or take away my child. What did I do? It had to be.
Speaker 1:It was three years ago when I did that bad thing, right, when I disrespected this person, or when I gossiped about this other person, or when I lied to my spouse or to this person or to that person, right All of these things. They start blaming themselves and trying to find the problem that they did that made the Lord punish them in a specific way. So that is the anxious obsession They'll look at. I did something wrong, right, kind of going back to that negative view of self. I did something wrong. I deserve this because I did A, b and C right. But sometimes life just happens right.
Speaker 1:Life just happens sometimes and there may be no reason behind it, but it does allow us to see who we depend on and who we turn to during times of distress. And that's the attachment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. This is really illuminating in just the ways that you may have, or I may have, you know, just like a flashlight pointing out, you know, like, how am I reacting to God when I have that source of conflict or don't get it what I want, or, you know, he, he takes away something that I really wanted or puts me through something that I, like, really struggled with. This is amazing.
Speaker 1:Can you think of a person in scripture and see if we'd be able to figure out what their attachment style to God?
Speaker 2:Oh, I like that. That's a fun game. I was thinking about Jonah, actually, when you were talking, because Jonah was so reluctant to go talk to those people and deliver the message. Oh gosh, now I can't remember the name of the country, but he didn't want to do it. The Ninevites, yes, in Nineveh he got on a ship and went the opposite direction and even when he got there he was like 40 days and the land will fall, like. He just like said it really really quickly and he just like did not want to obey God.
Speaker 1:So to me that would tell me that he's avoidant. Yeah yeah, great illustration. Great illustration, like the stressor was I want you to send the message. And what was his response? I'm going to avoid it. You know I don't want to do it Right.
Speaker 1:If there was a secure attachment, you trust the person that's telling you to go send the message. If it's anxious, he would have done a Moses where Moses was like Lord, I'm not capable, I'm not worthy, I don't have the words, I'm not able to speak, right. So he was putting it on himself. Moses was, and Jonah, he could deliver the message. He just didn't want to do it Right. So he was avoidance. To that situation, moses would have shown kind of like an anxious attachment style, because he's kind of looking at himself and saying I'm the problem, I'm not worthy enough to go do this, pick someone else, I'm not the person, right. So it's a me issue, negative view of self, positive view of God. He didn't question God's character in that moment, it was just it was about me, like I'm not capable to do what you're calling me to do, right. So that would be a natious attachment style.
Speaker 2:Okay, then would you say, job was secure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, job was secure. Yeah, yeah, job, you could, you could. Now he has that. And here's the cool thing too, right, because there's this argument happening between Job and God. Right In a secure attachment, you're able to have those tough discussions and trust that the relationship is still going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Right, in a secure attachment. In a secure relationship, you can have tough conversations, right, I mean it's the typical. You can have tough conversations, right? I mean it's the typical piece of advice that we receive, right, like it's not that couples don't have arguments, it's how they have those arguments, like how do they speak to each other? What's the tone, what's the posture, all those things.
Speaker 1:So you can have a discussion or argument about something and be respectful and kind, right, and not fear that you're going to lose the relationship. So people who are secure in their attachment can have those discussions and know that at the end of it, they still love each other and they still care for each other and they're still going to be there for each other. An anxious attachment is not going to think that they're going to think what did I do wrong? Oh no, they're going to leave me. I'm not good enough for them. Oh gosh, why did I say that I shouldn't have said that, right, and the avoidance kind of like going to be like I don't care, I'm done with this, I'm better on my own, I don't need anyone. So they kind of take that approach. So again, similarly, we carry those same patterns in our relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is really interesting. And Job is almost a little tricky because he goes through so many emotions of like I'm faultless, why is this happening to me? It almost is like, nope, you got it wrong, God. And then when God humbles him in the last chapters, he really does like you're right. How could I possibly fathom the reasoning behind what you've done? But again, he never questions his worth or devalues himself. He really does stand up for himself and then is able to humble himself when he realizes he's in the wrong.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and that's a great point. It's the realization, right? Because we're human, we make mistakes. We're not going to be perfect in how we respond, but what you realize is that after the offense, they seek reconciliation, they seek understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they want to reconnect and reconciliation.
Speaker 2:They seek understanding and they want to reconnect and that's part of being in a secure relationship. Yeah, let's talk about the role of Jesus and kind of how he broke down and created closeness to God in the ways that maybe previous Near Eastern civilizations weren't able to do, because it was through a priest or through Moses or through Abraham. But with Jesus that changed, because now it was much closer, it was the embodiment of God in a person that they could then experience in real time. How does that impact the relationship you're still trying to have with God, the Father, but now you have Jesus in front of you? What kind of impact does that have on the attachment style you're trying to build with God when you've got the physical person in front of you? It's so hard to describe this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, because the biggest prompt the Pharisees and the Sadducees had with more so the Pharisees I guess had with Jesus was that he claimed to be God. Right, that was their big prompt, the person who had provided for us, who had protected us, who had been there with us through all of these dark seasons and centuries right prior to this time. You're saying that you're him, right, and that was hard for them to understand, like they didn't want to understand. They didn't understand and you know. So Jesus starts talking to them in parables and he starts modeling for them what the relationship with God the Father looks like. Right, he calls God his Father. So all of these things that he's doing that's just for people that are listening to him was confusing. It's like who says these things, right? So when you start talking to Native people, uh, on the prayer, there were prayers that were, um, that they were already having the fourth God, right, that everyone had their own prayer.
Speaker 1:But when Jesus was training in the Garden of Gethsemane and he says Abba, father and there's a lot of conversation around this, apparently some people think of Abba as something like Dad or Daddy or having a community of agreement. But when some other scholars were arguing well, it wouldn't make sense to say Daddy, father. Some of the people who were arguing was well, it wouldn't make sense to say daddy, father, some of the people who were arguing for what does Abba actually mean? So some people were saying, you know, it's a more intimate way of communicating with God, it's more personal, right, it kind of means dad or daddy, but it doesn't capture the full effect of what Abba father means. Is what other scholars would argue, and what they said was is that Abba doesn't just mean daddy or doesn't just mean dad, it means father, I will obey you. And he said Abba is not merely about intimacy, it's also about authority. And so I'm reading that. I'm like, wait. Well, that makes a lot of sense, because when Jesus is having the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's saying Abba, father. And what does he have to do? He has to follow Exactly Obey. To what? To the point of death, to the cross. So that makes a lot of sense, right.
Speaker 1:And so the implication is that it's not just the personal, intimate relation with God, but also because of that intimate relationship, I'm going to obey you. And that's what every parent you know wants. They want the love plus the obedience, right, and sometimes we sacrifice one over the other. There's some parents who go full obedience and, you know, don't care about the relational aspect with their children, and others just care about the love piece, without applying discipline or demanding obedience, in a sense. But you got to balance both out right, because when you love people, you do things that are pleasing to them and what would please the father is that the son would be obedient to the point of death, because that is what would restore the relationship of man back to God, the Father back to God. So those are the implications.
Speaker 1:So again, just kind of representing for us what a secure relationship is, is that the things that you're doing for each other. It's a matter of the will, like you're choosing to do those things because you love the person that you're doing them for, right? In a secure relationship you don't just do things. You do things that you may not like, but you do things also because you love the person, you're committed to the person, you want to see them happy, right, and I think in culture today we just kind of miss the mark. Like there's so much emphasis on you need to be happy and he was crying and bleeding and suffering on the cross, but he understood that that was necessary for us to be restored to our relationship with him, right?
Speaker 1:I don't know if Moses was happy about being sent to speak to Pharaoh when he didn't feel he was capable of doing so. Jonah definitely wasn't happy. Abraham wasn't happy to go and sacrifice his son, but he did it Right. So there's this love and there's this obedience, and that is part of a secure relationship things that we do for each other because we love each other. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Beautifully said Sam. Wow, you were mentioning the way that people prayed, yeah, yeah. Beautifully said, sam, Wow, you were mentioning the way that people prayed, yeah, yeah, the way that people prayed. Did that change with the coming of Jesus? And how he said you know, this is how you pray our Father, who art in heaven. Was that a new concept that really, like, showed people the closeness that they could get to God, or was that very common? Do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it was. It was. The prayer itself was common. I think the biggest distinction was this aspect of Abba Father and what that meant. It seems like that that wasn't used. That part wasn't used as much, I think, because it was a word from a different language. Again, my scholarly friends will have to check me out on that, but it doesn't seem like it was too uncommon. It was just that aspect of Father.
Speaker 1:I will obey you, and also again the biggest thing, too, was that the Pharisees just they didn't like Jesus in general because he communicated that he was God, so they didn't like that, even though he was.
Speaker 2:And also, if you compare, you know how the pharaohs and the Sadducees, how they saw God and how Jesus saw God. Those are two very different relationships. You know, one knows of God, knows everything about God, but lacks that intimacy, whereas Jesus has nothing but intimacy but also knowledge.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that you've spoken about in the past is there's a difference in the attachment theory when you know somebody but don't know them intimately in the sense of vulnerability and communication and closeness? Could you speak a little bit more on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, let me see. So there's the question that what leads to secure relationship with other people, like our knowledge of people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the question is more so the difference in attachment to those that you just know versus the difference in attachment to those that you're actually close to. How do we see God versus how do we feel about God? There's a major difference there.
Speaker 1:Okay, gotcha, yeah, so that touches on two terms that we see a lot in attachment theory, and one is called the God image and the other is called the God concept. The God image has to do with our experience of God, right? How do we feel when we talk about God? Do you feel anxious? Do you feel happy, excited, joyful, scared, like what do you feel about God when you talk about him or when someone talks about him? Right? So that would be the God image.
Speaker 1:The God concept is what we think about God and what we know about God. So there's some people that have a really good God concept but their God image struggles a little bit, like they may know a lot of things about God, but they fear him because maybe they rely. What they know about God is just that he is a just and righteous God and that he's going to execute punishment on those who deserve it. So they see themselves as that person. So, even though that is part of god's character, it's not all about character, right? They focus on that part and therefore they feel scared. So their god image, their experience of god, is fearful. But their god image is that he is just and righteous and will to judge.
Speaker 2:So there's other so that would be, I want to say, like a religion that's really based on the rituals of the religion, versus like the actual relationship of the religion.
Speaker 1:Yes, that that's exactly what it is. So you'll see a lot of that in more. Um, can you say religions that have a lot of practicing or doing of things? They legalistic churches. They will have kind of that same concept like good understanding of God, good knowledge of God, but their God image, it struggles, they're very fearful of God or they only see God as judgment.
Speaker 1:They themselves can be very harsh, right, that's just kind of what they experience because that's the environment, that's their culture. Right, cultural background plays a huge role. You know, I come from a Latino background, so Latinos they, you know, they tend to be a little bit more more harsh, more straightforward, more direct. And so when you grow up in that type of environment and you have your fathers and uncles who are similar in that way, it makes sense for us to see God as that way, like God is tough and he's strong and he's, you know, if you misbehave he's going to punish you. Right, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:But that's not all of God's character. So as we study scripture more and more, we start to see oh, but you know what? God is also patient with me, like I messed up a lot, and he is so patient with me, like if I was my own kid, I would not be as patient with me, right? So we have this different concept of ourselves and we just start to appreciate God's patience a lot more, his mercy, his grace. So then we start to have a more fuller understanding of who God is. So my God image starts to change.
Speaker 1:My experience of God is not fearful anymore Now. It's restful Like. I know that God loves me, I know that he cares for me and I know that the reason why I'm living my life the way that I do is because I want to please him and it's not because I fear that if I don't do A, b and C, that God is going to punish me in some way, shape or form. If something bad happens to me, I'm not immediately going to think well, god is punishing me, and that's typically what an anxious, attached person would do. God is punishing me because I did something wrong and that's why I'm going through this.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So it shows me that having a relationship with God like although routine and regiment and ritual when it comes to a relationship with God, in certain religions it serves a purpose of kind of understanding the concepts of God from an educational standpoint. But when it really gets into the meat of a relationship and having that secure attachment to God, it requires that deeper level of that relationship, of having closeness and intimacy and vulnerability, of not just, you know, going to communion, for example, every single Sunday or going to confession every single Sunday, but also coming to God outside of those moments, outside of that regimen and routine. I'm just going to keep using these R words, but going to him outside of that of like this is who I am. It's not that I have to do A, b and C to connect with you and that's how it works. But I'm just going to pray to you right now. I'm just going to you, know, pray to you through a friend. I'm just going to come to you humbly. I guess I'm just referring to like prayer. But I mean, am I missing something here? Is it going to different churches that create that intimacy with God and that image of God would be improved In my household I feel like it was so clearly distinctive of, like my mom was non-denominational, all about the relationship, very charismatic, all about the prayer, all about the worship, and maybe that's another example.
Speaker 2:And my dad was Russian Orthodox, so it was all routine. Every church service was the same, very regimented, and again, that could just be their personality types and that's why they both resonated with it. You know, alongside upbringing, obviously, but if, like somebody like my dad, wanted to grow closer to God and improve the God image of who God is, it would require, you know, going to church, going through everything in that service because he enjoys it, but also seeking God personally outside of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it really comes to an understanding of one's emotion, right, background-wise, instead of Russian or Ukrainian right, and what is a common cultural understanding of what a man or a woman is within those cultures? That plays a role in it. Right so, for example, to be stoic, right or to not pay attention to your emotions, that person is going to have a much different emotional experience, a God image, than someone who grew up in a house where emotions were valid and accepted and expressed and acceptable. Right so, for someone who's unemotional, their relationship with God is going to look unemotional, right so?
Speaker 2:interesting.
Speaker 1:So their focus on God image is not going to be necessarily important to them, or it's not going to be a significant factor for them. They're going to think that because they just never learned that, right, you were supposed to be unemotional, so they're going to focus on the aspects of God that are unemotional. Right? So the only thing that that covers is justice, because that's supposed to be right down the middle. Right? You need to be fair, so that's justice. You need to execute justice. You need to express truth. That makes sense to them because there's no emotion tied to it. Express truth Like that makes sense to them because there's no emotion tied to it.
Speaker 1:But let's say you have someone else who grew up in a very emotional home where feelings were the main thing, like your feelings were the most important thing. You have to feel happy. I'm going to do everything that I can to make you feel happy. And you come to church and you don't feel that way. And if you don't feel that way, what do you think? You think there's something wrong. You think there's something wrong. You think this is not the God that I know. Right, because there's no emotion involved. So it could be good doctrine, good understanding of who God is. But if you don't feel a certain way, you think that something's wrong. Why? Because you grew up in a home where your emotions were the most important thing.
Speaker 2:This is insane. I just had a friend come visit me and stay with me and she was, like, can we go to Catholic Mass? I'm like, yeah, a friend come visit me and stay with me. And she was, like, can we go to Catholic mass? I'm like, yeah, we can totally go to Catholic. I don't go to Catholic mass, but like, if that's what you want, we could, let's go ahead.
Speaker 2:There's a really beautiful cathedral here and so we go, we do the thing. It's awesome, it's beautiful, but again, very different from my church. My church, we are singing, there's a band, there's a drummer, you know like there's a sermon. It's very emotional. My church, this church, Catholic mass.
Speaker 2:I've been to tons, tons of masses, but this one again, like very routine, unemotional, and I asked her afterwards. I was like you're not really a spiritual person. You know, why did you? Why do you? Why are you Catholic? I didn't realize that you were a Catholic at all.
Speaker 2:And she, her response was exactly that. She's like I just like love, how clear and focused. And like straightforward this is. And I don't think it's saying like hers is better, mine is better. It just makes sense what you just said, sam, of like if that's how you approach religion and like your relationship with Christ of being something that is straightforward and focused and stoic, then, yes, something like Catholic Catholicism or Russian Orthodox would make more sense for you to go to that service versus a charismatic or a southern baptist or a non-denominational church. Exactly this is blowing my mind, and so it. It really is that, like nurture and upbringing and kind of how you view your attachment style to religion as a whole is going to formulate your attachment style to god, and are you going to have a more serious relationship with him or a more vulnerable relationship with him? And that's just based on the emotions that you attach to a God figure.
Speaker 1:Exactly Yep, that's exactly. And think of all the layers that we've covered that influence your God attachment. We talked about your parents, we talked about authority figures, we talked about your background, culture-wise, and then we talk about just modern culture in general. Then we talk about religiosity and that those are the behaviors that we do to connect with God, and then we talk about spirituality, which is what we think about God, right. And then so we've covered right there, like five, six layers of things that influence our attachment to God, not to mention romantic relationships.
Speaker 1:Imagine if you go through a series of broken relationships. At some point you start to believe that there's something wrong with you or something wrong with other people, right. And what happens then? If you have multiple ruptures in your relationship with God, you start to believe that either something's wrong with God or something's wrong with you right and you'll lean one way or the other. That's why the example of Job was perfect, because he had so many things happen to him and had the argument with God and he realized again that God had done good. So so many factors that influence how we view God and how we view our relationship with other people.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. And just to bring back in the father aspect, would you say the same logic applies to you. Know, if I'm going to treat my religion with more stoicism and seriousness, then I'm going to see father. You know the father figure in that way and in that light as well. The same way you know, with emotional vulnerability, the same type of father and it sounds like kind of before Jesus, that view of even Abba Father was very stoic, very detached, but very serious. And then Jesus brought that emotion back into it of like a father you can connect to and speak to and, you know, relay your issues to. He was not so disconnected, he's in front of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And, cass, you bring up a point that we talked about. I think this was a while back, I don't know if it was on your live but we talked about the compensation model and the correspondence model. Do you remember that? Or maybe I briefly touched?
Speaker 2:on it. Oh gosh, no.
Speaker 1:But this was a concept that kind of speaks to what you were alluding to. Is that our relationship with our father? So my dad was. He wasn't stoic, but he was kind of like the tough guy, work provider and protector, right, that was him. That was my dad. I almost never saw him cry. Maybe I seen him cry two or three times.
Speaker 1:So the emotional piece I didn't really understand in regard to my relationship with God, right? So what the compensation model would suggest is that whatever I lacked, seen in my upbringing or in my relationship with God as a child my relationship with my dad, I'm sorry as a child, god would compensate for that by showing me something different when I would get older, meaning that he would show me the other side, his grace, his love, his patience, right? So typically in the research, what you find is people who did not grow up in a Christian home. They experienced the compensation model because when they come to the Lord later on in life, everything that they feel that they lacked in their relationships with their parents, god compensates for that by providing that in their adulthood, security, getting their needs met, whether that be through people or when they come to know the Lord personally through faith in Christ, so they feel that God compensates for all of the lack that they have throughout their lives. Right, so that would be a compensation model.
Speaker 1:The correspondence model is more of whatever your parents modeled for you growing up, and this is what we've been talking about for the most part on our show today. On the show today is that whatever your parents modeled for you, that's going to be the same way that you're going to view God when you get older. So if your parents were harsh, judgmental, critical and all those things, you're going to see God as harsh, judgmental and critical. But if your parents were kind, patient, loving and understanding, you're going to see God as you get older as kind, patient, loving and understanding. And that's typically for people who grew up in the church, so they were growing to church. Their parents go to church. So whatever their parents model for them throughout their childhood leading into adulthood, that's what they're going to understand of God as they get older, so the compensation model is more so for those that didn't get raised in the church.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, in the research that's kind of how they observe it they usually look at people who did not grow up in religion or very little of it. So when they do come to know the Lord, they do encounter religion. When they get older, they see it as a compensation. Like man, what was I? I missed out on all of this? This community prayer, you know all of these things that I needed as a child and now I'm receiving it as an adult. So they feel like they've been compensated in their relationship with the Lord for things that they didn't have in their childhood.
Speaker 2:There have been so many topics covered in this one episode I don't even know what to name it. To be honest, I feel like my mind's been blown. So thank you for shedding so much insight into the different levels of relationships that we can have with the Lord. Sam, I really really appreciate the time here. Also, I'm really excited for all of the episodes that are coming out soon with Psych and Theo. I'm very excited to see the episode come out with God Attachment Healing. What kind of episodes and topics are you going to be covering for both of those podcasts coming out that anybody listening and they want to learn more that they can look forward to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thank you for the shout out. I really appreciate that. So Tim and I are currently working on a number of series for Psych and Theo and we're currently on break. So we finished season one, we're gonna move into season two in a couple of weeks and we're doing a series on manhood. We're talking about some controversial topics. We're doing one on abortion um what else are? We talking about. Oh yeah, that's gonna be, that's gonna be you guys are fearless on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh you know it's, it's the topic conversations that people are having, but they don't have these two. That's true. The whole purpose of our podcast was exactly that to speak about it from what are the psychological effects of abortion and what are the theological implications of this as well, right, so there are those things that people don't like to talk about, but when we do talk about it, we gain so much insight and understanding. What does the Bible actually say and what does the research actually talk about the effects on unassessed people? Right? So I'm saying so, we try to tackle these topics that are difficult, I think, for most people to have.
Speaker 1:But you know, obviously, with tim and I, we've created the the culture, I guess, within our podcast, of being able to discuss these issues, and obviously some people don't like some of our topics that we did one on gender identity and that was popular, but you know it is what it is. Those are the conversations that we need to have. So those are a couple of things that we'll be talking about. On Psych and Theo, and, in regard to God, attachment healing, I'm finishing up the attachment styles. This week I'll do the disorganized or the fearful avoidance, and then next week I'll have the one I did with you, and we'll talk about God, attachment and parental upbringing.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, that's so exciting and I agree, I think that Psych and Theo is amazing, just the fact that you guys can dive into these biblical aspects and say, well, listen, this is what the theology says about it and this is what the psychology says about it. And, at the end of the day, how often do you get a psychologist and a theologian talking about a topic in a very calm and well-informed and educated manner? So it actually is a productive discussion. It's not who's right and who's wrong. You guys are simply saying you know, this is what the Bible says and this is what the data shows. And if you're trying to grow closer to Christ, christ, this is kind of what we suggest is the best direction. But there's no hierarchy of right and wrong coming out of either one of you guys. When you're, you know, discussing these topics that are very hot and um, I appreciate the space for it because I think it's what we exactly need yeah, yeah, and cast, and the thing about this too.
Speaker 1:these two fields, they would not be anywhere near each. They were always clashing with each other. It was always like what are you talking about? You shouldn't be talking about human development because you don't understand the psychology behind it. And they would say well, you don't understand how God created us, so there should be no psychology in the church. Why even talk about that? Right? So it's kind of mirroring these two things together and showing that these two things can exist within a Christian context and we could understand what the implications are, right? So it's all the topics that are happening in culture and again, we're just trying to shed light on these two areas of our fields so that people can have a full understanding of it. And I think- Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And Psychan and Theo, oh no, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I shared this with you yesterday. Regarding God attachment healing, is that now because I'm going to use it more so as my research space I'm kind of transitioning into? I'm still have attachment attached to it, but I'm also going to add forgiveness, shame and a couple of other and religious doubt, religious coping. So those are going to be some new themes and new topics that you're going to see on God of Destiny as well.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. And you guys aren't just on Spotify, you guys are on Instagram, but am I missing anything? Are you guys on Apple? Are you guys on TikTok? Youtube?
Speaker 1:We're going to start doing YouTube, so yeah, so once we get that down, hopefully we get our social media managers soon and hopefully we'll be able to put out more content in different places. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Good for you guys. Well, I I'm going to need a moment to honestly digest everything that we've discussed, sam. So thank you for just shedding light on things that I would have never had this conversation, how we not spoken. I really appreciate it. I feel like you've illuminated a lot of different aspects of you know the relationship and kind of relationship we can have with God. But do you have any final words on just like encouragement? I mean, maybe people that are like I'm totally anxious, am I doing religion wrong or I have to? Just a good concept of God but not a good image. You know, if somebody is listening to this and maybe feeling a little disheartened that they're not doing it emotionally as close as they possibly can what would be your final message to them?
Speaker 1:no, that's a great, great question. I think one of the things that I would encourage them is to find people who who you deem as secure in their relationship with god and who also have secure relationship with other people. Because the way you correct an anxious attachment style or an avoidant attachment style is by being exposed to more secure relationships. So you know, remember in school we had that one friend who was trying to make friends with maybe the ones who were excluded from the big groups and so on. Like that person, all it took was that person to invite them over to a game or invite them over for a party or to a get together and all of a sudden that person who was excluded feels part of the group. Now, right, it took one secure person to help this person over here who was excluded to feel now as part of the group. So the way that you kind of correct the anxious or avoidant attachment style is more exposure to secure people. But, with that being said, you have to develop a sense of um, a willingness to engage, because sometimes when you engage with secure people, you feel so the anxious person feels a little bit more intimidated by it, like, wow, this person has a lot of friends, they get along well, they're productive, so they might feel a little bit intimidated by that. So if you're an anxiously attached person, I would say it's okay, that's part of your attachment style. Continue to engage. You just kind of have to break out of that discomfort and be in that discomfort for a little bit. And as you practice that more exposure more and more you'll start to learn the secure attachment behaviors and again then you'll be able to practice them.
Speaker 1:For the avoidant, it's really just kind of developing, overcoming the sense of trust, like they don't trust people easily. So they might see a securely attached person and be like, eh, I think something's off with that person, they can't have that many friends, they shouldn't be that successful, right, and plus, I'm successful, I don't need another friend, I don't need them right. So for that person I would encourage kind of the same thing. It's like you know, give them a chance, just try and see what can develop from that relationship and you'll start to see what actually security can look like, that People security can look like, that People can be trusted. It takes time and they will take some time. And, yeah, just expose yourself more and see if you can find people that you would want to be with, people that you like, people that show that secure attachment and once you get that exposure, transfer that over to your relationship with God.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is a beautiful place to end. Thank you so much, sam. I can't wait to listen on. Psych and Theo and God Attachment Healing. I can't wait to have you back. Let's find another reason to do a live or an episode, because this conversation shouldn't stop.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm always open for you, all right.
Speaker 2:We'll talk soon. All right, thanks you.
