Ep. 33 - The Hidden Strength and Significance of Male Friendships

Have you ever considered how the friendships men form can shape their identity and influence their personal growth? In this episode, we embark on a journey to uncover the profound impact of male friendships on personal development, especially during adolescence—a crucial period for forming lasting social circles. Inspired by Erik Erikson's theories, we explore how these early connections affect identity formation and extend well into adulthood. As we navigate through the intricacies of societal influences on male friendships, we highlight the critical role of a supportive family environment in fostering healthy, meaningful relationships.

Our conversation delves into the complexities of developing deep connections between men and the unique challenges they face. From the potential repercussions of upbringing in homes with alcohol-related issues to societal expectations that promote hyper-independence, we examine various social factors that create a sense of isolation among men. We shine a light on the cultural stigma surrounding male vulnerability and emphasize the importance of supportive friendships that allow men to express themselves authentically. By contrasting the bonding styles of men and women, we reveal how shared activities contribute to trust and openness in male friendships.

Join us as we explore the transition from military to civilian life and its impact on male identity, touching on how military service provides a strong sense of belonging and purpose. We delve into why some men are drawn to online communities and figures that offer an instant sense of identity. Through this discussion, we underscore the universal human need for connection and the pursuit of communities where individuals feel valued and part of something larger. Tune in to discover how male friendships can be a powerful force for growth, resilience, and empowerment.

Chapters

• 0:02 The Importance of Male Friendships
• 12:05 Developing Healthy Male Friendships
• 25:02 Navigating Social Hierarchies With Wisdom
• 31:26 Building Male Identity Through Friendship
• 37:58 Developing Meaningful Male Friendships and Connections

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. Sam and Tim here ready for another episode. We're thankful that you guys are following the podcast. We've had a lot of great series, a lot of great episodes, and we thank you all for your feedback.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Today's episode is actually one from a follower or listener who suggested talking about the importance of male friendships, and we're going to talk about that specifically. You know, from her perspective. She has three boys, a lot of. We have a lot of parents who tune into the episode. I have three boys myself, so these are things that I've been thinking about as well. So, yeah, we hope that you enjoy this topic as we talk about the importance of male friendship. So, if you have boys, this one's only directed for boys. Obviously, we'll do one for the girls as well. But, yeah, this is an important topic because I think boys men in general kind of have had this negative connotation attached to them because of how they are impacting society. We've done an alpha, beta male topic as well, that's specifically with men. So what do parents do? What do you do as a young man in college or an adult man who already has their life, you know, kind of figured out in a sense. Today we're going to talk about why male friendships are important Right on.

Speaker 2: 1:33

What do you?

Speaker 1: 1:33

think Tim.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Well, I have no friends. I'm kidding, I have lots of friends.

Speaker 1: 1:38

A lot of friends and he's going to do shout outs at the end of this episode to those friends. Well, so why is this topic important? Well, one of the things that you're going to hear us talk about today is specifically dealing with the um, with teenage boys, and I want to start. I want to start there because that is kind of where the template for how you're going to establish future relationships, future friendships, begins. You know we all make friends in kindergarten, so you know elementary school, middle school and so on, but around high school is where you start to solidify, kind of who your circle is.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Why is this an important topic for parents to be concerned about or for young men to be concerned about? Because you're going to be able to trace back to your young life as an adolescent and be able to see some patterns. So, depending on where you are in life if you are a young college student who's listening, or maybe you're an adult male who already has a family you can probably trace back a lot of your friendship patterns back to your adolescent years and they may have changed. You know, sometimes college kind of changes that a bit, but a lot of the needs that have to be met in adolescence are through those male friendships. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. But, Tim, just in general, I was just curious what your thoughts are on the importance of male friendships.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Well, they're important, right, I mean? I mean that's a broad question, so I could take that in a lot of different ways. I'm curious. Let me shoot it back to you first, because you mentioned high school being the template for how you're or the, I guess, the foundation of how you make friends. My immediate thought was if college was another time period for that, or if high school is more universal, because everyone goes to high school, not everyone goes to college. What did you mean by that period of time being? The template of how you make friends is like you establish thinking patterns, behavior patterns and like patterns of socialization and that's how you'll you do kind of carry those through life, of how you make other friends yeah, yeah, that that's one part of it, the big part of it.

Speaker 1: 4:16

There is this focus on, on identity development. You know, one of the early psychologists would Eric Erickson. He would talk about this identity stage and he calls it identity versus identity confusion, and a lot of emphasis is placed on who am I right, who am I, who do I want to be and who do I want to be with during those times, and that's why you have a lot of these friendships that are developed during that time. So really it kind of exposes the needs that these adolescent males have during that time period. So if those needs aren't met, they're trying to find ways to get those needs met and if they are not met, then they go on through life trying to have those needs met in their adult relationships, sometimes not knowing how to clearly identify what those needs are. You know this episode is attached to a later episode that we're going to talk about how the LGBT movement has maybe impacted a lot of these male friendships. And this was a specific question again from one of our listeners who wanted to say my kids are exposed to the teaching in schools. They're seeing this all around, they're seeing it in TV shows, they're hearing it in music, or they have all these pop stars and so on that are exposing this lifestyle. What do I do about that as a parent? So we'll talk about that at a later time.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Right now we're talking about these patterns that are developed in adolescent years for friendships. This is for both male and female. So, girls and boys, they start establishing their identity, or want to establish their identity, in their adolescent years, but they don't know. That's why they're trying to pick up on anything in their surroundings to identify with. That's why, you see, some move into the gothic space, some move into the athletic space, some move into the academic space. Right, everyone's trying to find where they fit in and that's a big part of their identity. They are the gamer, they are the athlete, they are the theater kid. Whatever the case is, they're looking for that identity. But that identity is, it means something to them. It's something of value, it's something that for them, communicates. This is my contribution to the world or to the space that I'm in.

Speaker 1: 6:38

So the patterns that it sets up is what am I going to be looking for as an adult? And one of the major influences of that is how solid and how connected is family life. That's one of the big factors here when we talk about identity development. It's so important to have a two-parent home for kids, especially when they're going through those teenage years, and it's hard. It's hard for to have a two-parent home for kids, especially when they're going through those teenage years, and it's hard. It's hard for kids because they get a lot of their identity from their parents. They have personality traits from their parents, they have certain tendencies that their parents have and then they're going through the space of trying to figure it out in their own world. Of where do I fit in with these strengths and weaknesses that I have? So when I was referring to the patterns, there are some behavioral patterns, but more so it's needs patterns Like what am I looking for Right?

Speaker 1: 7:33

And for young men specifically, you know we talk about the I think we've briefly talked about this just in passing but one of the needs is the need for connection, and one of the ways that you get that connection is through physical touch, that physical touch from a loving father. What does that look like? Wrestling, you know, roughhousing, playing a sport with them, doing all these different things because dads weren't around, maybe during our era as much you know again, everyone's family is different. But if your parents weren't around, if your father wasn't around during that time, for around, maybe during our era as much you know again, everyone's family is different. But if your parents weren't around, if your father wasn't around during that time, for you as a male you may not know what actual connection feels like. Cause, part of the way that we interpret connection is through physical touch.

Speaker 1: 8:17

Right, for guys that's rough housing. They'll give hugs or you know it's a special handshake, whatever the case is. But all of those things, they mean something. You know, I was just watching football yesterday. Cowboys won, very happy about that, and they had their own handshake. Right, they do their individual handshake with each you know different player and so on. All of that communicates a level of closeness within that relationship. So needs, whatever needs, are lacking in adolescence. Those are the needs that parents are trying to fulfill, and if they're not fulfilling, then they're going to be fulfilled through these other groups that we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 8:55

And it seems like for guys who grow up and I think there's probably some guys who are listening who maybe are like this where they didn't have a close relationship with their father, so they gravitated toward their male friends yeah, In some way, and that can for good or bad.

Speaker 1: 9:12

Or an uncle, or older brother, right, there's always someone that they're trying to look for to see what it is to be a man. For those who had a close relationship with their fathers, like they know, they have a good sense of identity. If they have again, if they have a close relationship with their dad, they have a good sense of identity, they have good direction, they tend to have better discipline, right, stay out of trouble, things like that. But even if you, when you have those things, you still need a support system in school and other family members to be involved in that right. So uncles play a big role in that, big brothers play a big role in that. Other men, men in the church, right, everyone has a role.

Speaker 1: 9:54

So I always talk about it specifically for men. I haven't seen it as much with women, but I wouldn't see it as a bad thing. It's a good thing for them too. Where you have someone who's you see as a mentor so it's typically a coach, a teacher, a father, an uncle, someone right Someone older, wiser, kind of poured into you Then you have a close friend or your best friend who you grew up with. What that was like, you know, feeling connected, doing all those things together and then someone that you're pouring into could be a younger sibling, could be younger friend, just someone that you have something to give to. You're better at them at something and you want to pass that on to them, right? So I always talk about those, those three different relationships that every male should have, right, you have a mentor, you have a close friend and you have someone that you're pouring yourself into, as well as someone that you're teaching something to very important for good male development.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Okay so let's talk about men who are older now, let's, uh, let's say, you know they're, they're older now and they've recognized. Well, you know, I, I've now formed, I have the, I have these behavioral patterns. Those are needs-based friendships or behavioral patterns that drive friendship formation. And maybe they see like, well, some of these things are good and some of these things are bad, or at least healthy, not healthy, maybe. Put it that way. What advice would you give to someone like that, someone who's saying I don't, I'm looking around and I'm noticing that my friend group is kind of a mixed bag of people who are good for me and people who are not so good for me. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 11:34

So you're asking what about men who are evaluating their social circle and they see some friends as good and some friends as not so good? Yeah, okay, social circle and they see some friends as good and some friends as not so good? Yeah, okay. I guess one, one big part of that would depend on what do you mean by the ones who are having a bad influence on you? Because I think if you can recognize that someone is having a bad influence on you, you would tend to pull away from them. So the question is what is that providing right?

Speaker 2: 12:02

so a good example could be exactly what I'm getting at yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:05

So a good example of that could be, maybe, friends who drink. Okay, so you have friends who drink and you came from a household where alcohol was either prohibited or you had an alcoholic father, so for you, you've tried to stay. But the only time that you feel connected with people is when you're having a drink with them, right? So those obviously you're meeting a need, right? It's the only familiarity that you may have with your upbringing, right, could be your dad, could be a grandpa even, but typically more so it's directly related to your primary family your father, your parents and so on. But that could be trying to meet a need. When guys drink together, it brings a sense of closeness, and you have to be aware of what am I looking for here. So, when you hang out with those friends, does it end up being a good thing or a bad thing for you, and how do you evaluate whether it's a good thing or a bad thing? What do you do? Do you do things that you're ashamed of, or do you feel closer to them because of it? Or do you feel more isolated, right? How do you feel afterwards? The key here is to feel connected.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Most men today do not feel connected. You know we've talked about why is that, you think, why we don't feel connected? Yeah, why do men not feel connected? I think one part is social media. Another part is family. Like, if you don't see your family connected, why would I be connected? A focus on hyper-independence. We talked about this on our Alpha Beta series, where there's this push of do your own thing, build your kingdom, do everything that you need to do, get rich, get women, all these things. So it becomes very me-focused. So you start to build yourself in a sense, and you go through those seasons of loneliness. But if you look at it from the Beta or Alpha perspective, they're seeing it as that's the price you have to pay in order to be successful.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:09

So maybe a lot of that messaging.

Speaker 2: 14:11

You can almost form your own echo chamber. Yeah, in a sense of saying, I am an alpha male.

Speaker 1: 14:16

Mm-hmm, yeah, and you surround yourself with people who are like that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Yeah, you mentioned social media. I think that's true. Yeah, I think that's universally true. I think you know men and women.

Speaker 1: 14:27

Yeah. So one of the things that is important for us to understand is how do we then create healthy friendships, cause we may have unhealthy and healthy friendships. So the question is around bonding, like how do, how do men bond in their friendships and relationships? And it's very interesting because there's some cultural factors here where I mentioned earlier about the importance of physical touch, especially for men. But that's usually when you're younger. When you're older it almost feels, at least for some, and again depends on the culture as well, where physical touch plays a role in that, where physical touch plays a role in that. Obviously, I'm talking about healthy physical touch, but that can also be something to consider for someone who may have been sexually abused.

Speaker 1: 15:12

And one of the things that we hear a lot with trauma is men don't talk about it a lot. I'm not saying that women don't talk about it, though they don't as well. You know there's a lot of shame attached to being sexually abused, but when men experience it, it's almost like a double layer of shame. One is because you allowed it to happen and because you're a guy, you feel like you're physically capable, that you're physically capable of stopping it, and you didn't. So that's one part of it right. With females you might say, okay, this, you know this person was stronger than she was. They, they did this and that, and you know they weren't able to. So we see it differently from a cultural lens. But with men it's almost like well, you should have been strong enough, there's this belief, and you should have been strong enough to to say no or to not allow that to happen. Right, and then the second part is what does that mean of you as a man, especially if you were sexually abused by someone else who was a male right, because that has happened with females too Could be an older babysitter, dad, someone like something like that. So there's just a lot of stuff that brings a lot of sadness, you know, to the whole situation Because, again, we want men to talk about it, and one of the things that you'll hear a lot from men is that every time I share something that's used against me, that's kind of the narrative that they've been fed is well, you need to share, you need to open up, you need to be vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 16:37

But when they're vulnerable and if it's used against them, that just closes them up even more. So the importance of male friendships comes into play here where you just need one person. You just need one other guy friend who can just hear you out and be there for you as you share that. So how do you do that? This is we don't do, sharing the same way that women do, right? Jordan Peterson makes a lot of great points with this too, but one of the points that he makes is men do things side by side. Women or men are vulnerable when they do things side by side. Women are vulnerable when they do things face to face. And that's such an important point, because if you can just find someone to do things with, that will allow for space for vulnerability, because no guys you can correct me if I'm wrong are going to meet up just to share something. That's going to go, unless it's accountability, which men tend to do, that well, there's great risk in doing that there is.

Speaker 2: 17:38

There's, from a man's perspective, this it it feels you have to really really trust the guy that you're talking to.

Speaker 2: 17:49

You almost have to have a prior relationship with them, like some sort of camaraderie yeah and I'm uh, now I'm just kind of speaking off the cuff here, but like it almost seems like in that kind of situation, one guy is helping the other one, in a situation like one guy is going to the other one for help or advice and it's very solution oriented at least it needs to be.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Oh, you're right, like two guys just don't get together and commiserate about about something and like coddle their feelings together. You know, like, like. I don't mean to demean, you know anyone, or or like, or the way that women relate to each other. I'm not, I'm not trying to do that here, but like for a man, for men, that that kind of most men don't naturally do, that You're right, they want to. If you were to go on a hike together and you're hiking through the mountains and then you start to talk, you know, or you go shooting together, or you go camping or not just outdoor stuff, you know you take on some project, you build something together, whatever it is you know, and through those, through those things, those endeavors, then, like men, start to talk to one another.

Speaker 1: 18:56

Yeah, and I think that's what we want to encourage is go and do something with that friend or with other other men, and that opportunity will come up. But what we're saying I think the culture has pushed you know they just say be vulnerable, you got to be vulnerable, you got to learn to be vulnerable. That's the wrong message, because it's trying to frame it in a way of sit down and just share what you're going through. And that's not typically how it works. That's not how typically men operate. Usually, you're doing something and you start doing things together, and then the opportunity arises where, hey, you know what I feel close, and you're not consciously thinking about this either. Sometimes you're just doing something and a conversation comes up oh dude, I didn't know that. And you start sharing with each other. Oh, here's what I'm going through, what about you? And you start, kind of you know, sharing with each other.

Speaker 1: 19:46

But again, a lot of that is just based on the trust level between those two people. If they don't know what trust looks like which a lot of men don't, because of either the expectation that they had or maybe they didn't know what they look like with their dad, right, you need some model model, and usually what I hear from men is that they have a mentor, a coach, a teacher, someone who just accepted them. That teenage years there's so much looking for acceptance that if the father or the mother can't do that for them at that age, at that stage, they don't know what to look for. But they know what it feels like, right, they know what it feels like to be heard from their coach. They know what it feels like to be comforted by their teacher after they fail an exam, something like that. They just need some form of model of what it feels like, not what it looks like, what it feels like how do I feel when this person was there for me. But, guys, we don't think like that. We think in kind of this aspect of what happened, just matter of fact, things that happened, not how I felt throughout that process, but your body experiences that and when it experiences that, it provides opportunity for vulnerability. So very important why we need to have those mentors.

Speaker 1: 21:00

And again, it can be a leader in the church, it can be an older brother, it can be a pastor, it can be anyone, but you want to have these people around you. Now for those parents who are listening and they say well, you know, I'm trying. Maybe you're a dad and you have kids, you know, and you're trying, if you're not able to, or if you are able, to add other men to that, to that space too, because on things that you may be lacking, another male that you trust can also be a part of that process for your boys, right? So you want to find ways to give them mentors and have at least one close friend. They don't need a bunch.

Speaker 1: 21:42

And that's the other false idea too is that sometimes we say, well, you need a lot of friends, or you need to be more connected, you just need one. But there's a lot of pressure on men to have this huge group of friends when you could have a handful of people that you trust as opposed to many that you don't. So that's one of the ways to look at that as well no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 22:11

You know, men are men, come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. There's a common, there's commonalities to them. Some are going to be, like you said, athletic, some are going to be the gamers, some are going to be more analytical, some are going to be more emotional. Yeah, I think, as a Christian, it is really important, as a Christian man, to think critically and, uh, think outside of cultural boxes, because the culture will say, well, men should act this way, or they should behave this way, or men don't do this, they do this. These are all voices in the culture, yeah, and I think it really takes a man with a lot of what we talked about with the Alpha Beta episode. Biblical manhood is moral courage.

Speaker 2: 23:05

And it takes a man with the moral courage to say okay, the Bible calls me to act this way, not that way, and I I'm being I'm being kind of basic in what I'm saying. Let me give you an example. I've noticed this a lot with a lot of guys. There is this, almost this tendency to try to humiliate one another, like it's a I think it, I think it's a cultural thing where there's not a lot of men who are good teachers. Let's say they don't want to teach other men and so that teaches. That tells young men don't show vulnerability, don't ask for help, don't ask questions, because if you do, someone will come along and make you look stupid.

Speaker 2: 23:58

You know, and I think, as we get older Christian men I'm talking to you you need to kind of recognize that you need to be a good mentor to other men, and that means you need to ask yourself this are you the kind of person that another, some guys come to for help? Not help like as an idea therapy, but like help as an I? Can I get your advice on this? And they ask you something. That's maybe a little bit embarrassing if they were to ask in a group, but you're the kind of person that they can ask and they can trust with confidence and you'll say, okay, yeah, yeah, do this, don't do this, you know it's okay, it's okay. If you don't know that, it's fine, like, hey, I was there at one point, it's fine, you know we've all been there and you have that kind of discretion and you can be a trusted person with those things. I think that is a hallmark of a, of a good man and a good friend too.

Speaker 2: 25:02

So many guys just I think they miss that, they don't understand that and they think that being a man means like being braggadocious or going around like trying to put, put other guys down and like and I just some sort of social ritual that I've never understood.

Speaker 1: 25:22

So I don't know that's it's. It's finding their ranking on the social status right yeah it's like where do I land?

Speaker 1: 25:31

and a lot of that is determined. And today, you know, one of the ways that they try to determine that this happens in adolescence a lot is their physical stature. Like, the physical stature communicates to you and to other people how competent or strong you are. But I mean for us now as adults, like we see that and we're like okay, that's just what life is right. But again, you got to think for these teenage boys that communicate so much, either I'm weak and I don't know a lot, so that I'm low on the social status scale, whatever, that is right and that means a lot to them when they come you know I'm thinking about this with my boys like when they come and start to tell me about you know how they weren't picked, or they were picked last for the team or something like that. Like, for them it's their ranking. For me, as an adult, I understand that and say, okay, well, you're going to get better, but that's not their world yet. Their world is this means I'm not good enough.

Speaker 2: 26:29

It was the worst to get picked last for kickball.

Speaker 1: 26:32

It does I mean thinking back about it. It's like it feels horrible.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Yeah, because you don't bring anything to the table.

Speaker 1: 26:38

You don't bring speed.

Speaker 2: 26:39

You don't bring size, you bring nothing.

Speaker 1: 26:41

Or you think of yourself a certain way, but not everyone else sees you that way. Like I thought it was pretty good, but because I was picked last, I'm like, oh well, okay, I'm going to have to prove myself. So that's how I interpreted those things, but that's, that's all part of it. Like you use your skills, your abilities, to try to prove something to other people, and that's what that stage is about yeah, that's a good point because that helped clarify what I was struggling through just a minute ago talking about the.

Speaker 2: 27:05

It's the establishment of a pecking order, yeah, and it goes to something that I say a lot and that's most people never leave high school in their minds most people don't.

Speaker 2: 27:13

You know, and and I think the research, what you're talking about, backs that up Most people carry the things that they learned from high school, their socialization from high school. They carry that into the rest of their life and they don't ever think are these things actually the way I should be behaving? Most people just don't ask that question, when they should be asking that question, I think, for Christian men. The point that I was trying to make was this our culture has all kinds of socialization rules and ways of establishing pecking orders, be that in recess with the kickball game, or in high school, where you have your jocks and then you have your gamers and all these other things where people are fitting into their boxes. People learn like men, will learn to act a certain way in high school, to establish that kind of pecking order, and they'll carry that into adulthood.

Speaker 2: 28:11

Yeah, and what I'm asking christ, asking Christian men, is to exercise your mind, because your mind is what will set you apart in the adult world, not your physical stature, of course, like if you're successful with money and things like that, yeah, you'll climb higher on a social status ladder, but that doesn't mean you'll have good, good relational habits, let's say.

Speaker 2: 28:35

But if you exercise your mind and you become a man and in your heart and man of character, who can, who knows like, basically you're a man of wisdom, yeah, and courage, moral courage. If you are that kind of man, you can navigate all kinds of different environments and you can be a mentor to other men because you have the ability to step outside of these shallow rituals that our society plays, these ways of establishing pecking orders, uh, whether in the workforce or whether in the broader culture, you, you can step outside of that and say you know, know what, I don't need to act that way. That's a silly way to act. I don't need to do that and you can model that for other men. But that requires exercising your mind to act a little different and bravery to act different from other people, to go against the grain in some respects.

Speaker 1: 29:33

No, that's a good point. I like the, the encouragement that you're given to men to be that for for these younger guys, because that is exactly what what they need. And you know you were, you were talking about the, the, the pecking order in a sense. There have been studies done about that of how boys play versus how girls play, and guys get into that organizational pattern of, okay, I'm going to establish this, here's the rules, and here was kind of follows along with that, and then they establish themselves physically right. Well, who's going to be number two?

Speaker 1: 30:05

Interestingly enough and I saw this a lot in the school that I, um, that I worked at, for whatever reason, it's always a smaller guy and they have like a big old right hand guy. It's hilarious. I see, with the boys, though, now where they start playing games, and when they play these games, my oldest he'll say no, no, you're not going to be there, you're going to be this. And my second born, he'll go away frustrated. But because he wants to play, he gets under that rank, he becomes whatever the oldest told him to do, and boys play like that, like they have to have that order For girls. It's interesting because if they have a more social and there's a disruption between two of the girls or three of the girls, they'll stop playing the game. So very interesting to see how that moves on, because it even happens in adulthood, right? We're talking about patterns.

Speaker 1: 30:52

So, in adulthood, if you don't fall in line, what do I start to do? You use your power, right? Going back to this idea of virtue, you don't become virtuous. You start to use your physical dominance, your power, your authority to manipulate people, to do what you need to do, right. So it's an abuse of power in a sense, but because you want people to fall in order and you know, I'm assuming in the military everyone has their ranks and you respect each of those ranks and so on. So we're very organized regarding that and it's based on skill and competence and so on, right? So those things, these younger guys, they need to see something in you, to your point, that they admire, to that. They want something that they aspire to in order for them to be led by you. And we all have a role in that, because we don't know who's looking at us, right? It could be someone in our friend group, could be someone at church. You know, younger guys, they just see something in us that they may want to follow, and I think that we do need to take a responsibility with that, whether it be our own children or other people that you're mentoring. Right, you want to take that responsibility seriously, you know.

Speaker 1: 32:00

So, out of all of this, what are the benefits, I guess, of these male to male friendships? So one of the big parts is this emotional support. Again, emotional support for men looks different than it does for women. Emotional support for men is hey, I'm going through something, I may not need to talk about it, but can you just be here with me? Sure, I can be here with you and you're just sitting down, you can be watching coffee, you can go and do some activity. That, for men, is emotional support, right, and again, it removes those feelings of loneliness and depression, because we're looking for the feeling of connection, not the idea of I need to share everything that I'm experiencing. It also provides social skills development.

Speaker 1: 32:47

You're communicating, but, again, the way that we communicate with each other is very matter of fact, very direct. We usually ask for accountability and we keep accountability with each other is very matter of fact, very direct. We usually ask for accountability and we keep accountability with each other, but there's this strong linkage to the way that I communicate with you is going to be contingent on how my father communicated with me. Right, it's going to be contingent on how I communicated with my friends or with my siblings, even when I was younger. So the key factor here is stress.

Speaker 1: 33:22

What happens when you experience stress? Do you seek people out or do you isolate? And depending on what that is, you'll know what need you have. So if you isolate, you need to connect. If you tend to seek people out, you need to isolate and reflect a little bit more. So that's one big part of it. Friendships help young men explore their values, beliefs and personal identities, and obviously this contributes to a stronger sense of self. This goes back to the idea of if I'm looking to belong in something, I need to know what it is that I'm searching for. So for, um, maybe men who enter into the military. Maybe you could tell me a little bit about that. You know, what was it like for men who entered the military? What did you see that they were searching for? Oh, man.

Speaker 2: 34:11

Okay, so, so I went. My branch was the army. I was in the army national guard. So, um, all, all factions of the army, whether that's active duty, reserve or guard, we all got to go through basic training in ait. Everyone goes through that same kind of training before they go off to their various um, you know, um detachments. You know the guard guys, us national guard guys. They would call us nasty girls, uh, and basic training ng ng national. They'd call us nasty girls Military has all kinds of nicknames for people.

Speaker 2: 34:48

So we weren't just weekend warriors like the reserves. We were nasty girls, but you know, in the military so the army is big, it needs a lot of people to run and so they're recruiting just lots and lots of numbers. But they typically target guys who don just lots and lots of numbers, but they typically they typically target guys who don't have a lot of direction. I'm not saying everyone that joins the military doesn't have direction. You know, a lot of guys do join the military knowing what they want to do.

Speaker 2: 35:16

But there are a lot of young men 18, 19 years old who they don't really know what they want to do in life yet and the military just seems like the logical, like oh yeah, I'll join the military, or like I've always wanted to go shoot guns or whatever. Or some of them are like I want to pay for school, whatever it is, it could be anything. Some of them it's like I'm, I have, I have a four year of identity and the army give, provides an opportunity, let's say, for a new identity. And they start by shaving your head and taking all of your personal belongings and giving you assigned clothes and assigned personal items and assigned bed and assigned bunk buddy and assigned bearer is that person with you all the time, like that's your, your bunk buddy is okay, um, but uh, and then you have your unit and all kinds of things like you're not, you're not an individual, and that's what's what they always say, that's what they ingrain in you and basic and ait is aIT is advanced individual training.

Speaker 2: 36:23

It's like the school that you go to after basic to get your specialized training, but they'll always say you are not an individual. In fact, many years ago, the recruiting for the army was an army of one. I don't know if you remember those commercials and they got away from that because they realized like, oh, like we're, we're recruiting people who think they're going to be an army of one, and the army is not an army of one, it's an army of many.

Speaker 2: 36:49

So, yeah, they would ingrain in people that your identity comes from your unit and so a lot of guys really really buy into that. Some of them become like what I call the true believers, where they just go full bore in the military and, to be fair, some branches or some levels of the military, especially the higher combat units, like Army Rangers or Special Forces, delta, navy, seal operators, anything like that, you really do have to be all in, I mean, or even like Marine recon, like those kind of things, you have to be. You have to eat, sleep and breathe the military to do that. If you're not, if that isn't your personality, then just don't go into those branches.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Go do something else in the military. Those aren't for everyone. So, yeah, don't go into those branches, go and go do something else in the military. Uh, those aren't for everyone. So, yeah, do you feel they have a strong sense of identity after the? Oh yeah, well, a lot of guys, yeah, so a lot of guys.

Speaker 2: 37:58

I I saw this personally in the national guard, where the, the guard itself was their, their like their one anchor in life. Their personal life was in shambles. They didn't have a lot. They didn't have a good job or good career prospects or anything. And the guard, their military unit, the guys that they saw one weekend a month was their one tether. That was kind of keeping everything together for them. And when that ended and they get out, it's like they don't have that anymore and they really miss that.

Speaker 2: 38:30

Or active duty a lot of guys come off active duty and it's all they know. And then they go into the civilian world, which which I would tell people, the civilian world is the real world. The military is not the real world. It's its own world. But it's not the real world where the vast majority of people live and work and everything. And so they have to, they have to learn. They have to relearn, like social skills and and all these other things that the civilian life is operates on. They have to kind of relearn those things. But leaving the military it's hard for them because it's like it's all they've all they've known right, right, and they entered.

Speaker 1: 39:08

So young, yeah, and still in that identity stage oh, a lot of them will get tattoos.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Yeah, in basic training of their, of their basic training union. That's what some guy like I saw, some guys that were going to do that when we were graduating basic training. They're like I'm going to get a tattoo of our unit. I'm like I pulled one off on my side. I said, bro, don't. I'm like. I was like like a year from now, five years from now, you'll remember basic training. You'll remember those guys. You know look back with fondness but you ain't going to care about the unit symbol.

Speaker 2: 39:41

Yeah, it's so interesting the thing, the extent that we'd go to to identify with.

Speaker 1: 39:48

Yeah, and that's a big part of it, right? You know, one of the things that other benefits of having these male friendships is an enhanced self-esteem, and that's because you have a role in that group and that means that you're contributing something. So sometimes the utility of that, right for men, it's very important to contribute.

Speaker 2: 40:06

Yeah, and this goes. This goes even to the thing we talked about earlier, the problem of where men need to get help from other men. They need to share something and what they're looking for is not pity, where they just, they just want someone to feel sorry for them. They, they want to be empowered again. Yeah, like they're coming to you for help, not so that you can do something for them most men but so that you can. They want to feel empowered themselves to do something.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, and there's so much. There's a lot of research being done just on giving children in general chores. So obviously it's a place for both girls and boys. But, yeah, giving them chores gives them a sense of purpose, sense of identity within the family. Even so, yeah, I wouldn't say, you know, it's always been interesting to me.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Or maybe a lot of people like, why do? Why do these young guys at least back in vegas that was a common thing is you have all these young guys 12, 13 years old and they're joining gangs. And what's the common denominator for joining gangs? Well, they didn't have father around. Their father was working, so there was no emotional engagement and also a lack of physical presence. And they weren't bad fathers, like it wasn't like they were abusive or anything like that, they just weren't involved. So sometimes your physical presence is there, but if you're not emotionally involved or not even physically affectionate with your children, again that's going to leave that gaping hole in their lives. So they're seeking the feeling again, it's the feeling of connectedness.

Speaker 1: 41:37

And when you have this, you're part of this group. Again it could be a gang you're part of and you get a tattoo or you have some sort of identifying shirt. You know, one time I should start with you. I wore a blue shirt to a specific neighborhood because I was going to go visit a friend. And I get there, I ring the doorbell and he opens the door and he goes. He looks out Sam, what are you doing? And he pulls me into his house. I'm like what he's like don't ever wear blue around this neighborhood. I'm like why he's like that's the factor, that's the same blue that all these gangs have. I'm like what? I had no idea that that was an identifying factor, but it's those things that if I just wear a blue shirt, that's going to identify me with this group. So when you're looking for purpose and when you're looking for meaning, you're willing to do whatever it takes. I mean, that's how desperately we need that connection. God created us this way and created us in seeking connection.

Speaker 2: 42:35

And that's why. That's why, in some of the other episodes we've done, that's why men are gravitating toward the red pill community, that's why they're gravitating toward Andrew Tate, that's why men are gravitating toward the red pill community.

Speaker 2: 42:45

That's why they're gravitating toward Andrew Tate. That's why they're gravitating toward these online communities that will give them a sense of belonging and purpose, because they can't they don't really have a connection, to quote unquote normal men in society, and you could connect with them instantly because all you got to do is go to follow their page or whatever and you feel connected, just being part of that group, and then they start. You know, we've all had a friend like this, that like they just get into something and they start buying the t-shirts and everything.

Speaker 2: 43:12

They started wearing the clothes and and getting the stickers on their, on their computer, or bumper sticker on their car. You know, we've all had a friend like that. Yeah, they need to get sucked into something. Yeah, so, yeah, okay. So let's get practical men today, older men, let's say any, let's say mid-20s and up mid-20s to let's say, like you know, middle-aged men, anywhere they're working, maybe they're married, maybe they have kids, maybe not. How do they develop friendships? Let's say, like, I don't have a lot of friendships around me. Yeah, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 1: 43:51

yeah, well, I think one big part of this stage of life is important. So when you mention, like, the 25 year olds so maybe they're just out of college, started a new job and so on maybe they're single, not married again. So, stage of life is important Are you married, are you single? Do you have kids, do you not? All of those are factors to consider and that plays a big role into what should your social circle look like.

Speaker 1: 44:15

So you've heard me emphasize through this episode and through many other episodes that you just need one. Honestly, if you just have one solid friend to do life with who's walking alongside you, then that's okay and it's not the same friend. It doesn't have to be the same friend, right, because, again, seasons change, life changes, some people move and so on. It's just that you have another friend to walk alongside you during that stage or during that time. So if you're older, married with kids, then you're probably not going to be closest with someone who maybe doesn't have that same lifestyle that you have, but you might be more relatable to someone who's in that stage of life. Right, you don't have to be, but you could be, or you could also have the mentor that I was talking about, so someone who's ahead of you a couple of years. We like to learn from people who are ahead in life and are at a different stage of life than we are, so that could be a person as well. So find yourself a mentor, find yourself someone within your stage of life it doesn't always have to be, but it can so you have more relatability, more things to talk about. But even if it's not a person in your stage of life, if you find someone that you can get along with and you guys can you know, maybe you have similar interests in some things that can be the person, right, it's just fine that.

Speaker 1: 45:31

But don't put so much pressure on yourself to have this huge circle of friends, because we don't have the same type of needs at different stages of life. Right? You learn, you grow and you've established a different friend. You know what your values are. Your values may change just a little bit as you move into your thirties and forties and fifties. That you didn't have when you were 20, you know or a teenager, right. So your values change, the things, the things that you'd like to do. You don't like to do as much anymore, and this typically tends to happen every seven years? Right, every seven years you're like in a different stage of life, different expectations and also your level of commitment time right?

Speaker 1: 46:09

So if you're committed to a friendship or if you have a friend. You guys both kind of understand we're in this stage of life, we'll connect when we can. But is that the same expectation that the other person has? Right, because they may have someone else as a friend too right, they may not be you. So stages of life makes a big difference. So just understand the stage of life that you're in. You're not. You don't have to be or have a friend who's in that same stage of life, but it does help.

Speaker 2: 46:36

Yeah, yeah. I think my personal advice to people would be you got to put yourself in situations where you can make new friends. Sometimes that means like maybe changing churches. If you're in a church where you're like I just don't have any friends here, I mean that's important. I'm not saying the church is bad, but you need friends. Also, if your life is super busy, make yourself less busy or try to. That's a good one. If you can yeah?

Speaker 2: 47:06

I've noticed, I'm noticing this the older I get and the more I observe my own, you know, friends, circles and families, and all of us are in different stages of life. Yeah, so we all get busy and then we kind of get separated and spread apart. Hmm, but we use busyness as like.

Speaker 2: 47:23

Busyness is always like the crutch that we say like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy and busy, you know, but we just fill up our time with stuff and there was a, there was a prior generation where families were always kind of getting together for dinners and whatnot, and I think our generation needs to recapture that. Like we all remember that from like the 90s when we were growing up, 80s and 90s before social media and the internet, and I think we need to figure out ways to build those things back into our lives where all the families were all getting together again. Maybe that's Sunday night dinners or Sunday afternoon lunches or something you know. Yeah, we're intentionally doing that instead of we got to like all of our kids have got to be in the next sports program and we're filling up our time Monday night, tuesday night, wednesday night, thursday night, friday night with all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 48:21

Yeah, friday night with all this stuff, yeah, all the extracurricular things that our kids do, or all the side projects and side hustles that the culture tells us we gotta have. I mean, we. It's sort of irony because we're doing this podcast and it is a side hustle for us, but it's more of like a side jog for us.

Speaker 1: 48:39

You know, you know but uh make, make ourselves less busy so that we can actually spend time face to face, side by side uh, with each other, sharing life together yeah, I heard a lot of uh intentionality with that, like as the older you get, because your time is a little bit more limited, you want to be intentional about those friendships and relationships and I really like that. That reducing the time and also creating those moments of connection for for other people, because that does that, does model for those who are looking at us, even if they're on the outside of what that could look like like we could go back to that if we make the time for it. It's not like impossible to do.

Speaker 2: 49:22

Yeah and it could be like, hey, this week we're all going to go over to so-and-so's house.

Speaker 2: 49:26

And then this week, all the families are going to go over to their house and you just kind of, you move around like that and and you you make time to do that, not with the intention of like, oh, let's just go have a good time, but you you know exactly what you're doing and you're doing what you're creating an environment where the men can hang out and see each other, the women can hang out and see each other, the kids can all go and play and get in trouble or whatever.

Speaker 2: 49:49

You know, not too much trouble, but a little bit of trouble. You know, um, and it's like it's. I'm not. I'm not trying to be like let's recapture the 90s, but there was something wholesome about, yeah, that time period and and prior to it, it all kind of changed once the internet came about and we all kind of went into our cocoons digital, digital cocoons. So I think I think we can make an effort to do that. And for men especially who feel isolated, where it's like I feel like I'm raising my family, I'm spending time with my wife and my kids, but I feel so alone, I think cultivating those kind of friend circles would help a lot.

Speaker 1: 50:27

Yeah, and those things contribute to your functioning in those other areas too.

Speaker 1: 50:34

So, even though your responsibilities you know maybe family, maybe school, maybe your job, right, maybe any of those things Again, you seeking out those friendships and investing in them, that also contributes to how you perform in the other areas as well.

Speaker 1: 50:53

So, yeah, so, hopefully, for those of you who are either young adults, young men, adult males, men with families, seek out those friendships Again, seek out those friendships. Be a model for those who are younger, for those of you who are parents and have younger boys, in that stage where they're looking for their identity, play a big role in that. Okay, a big part of that is that physical touch that I mentioned. That's super important and also, again, giving them a sense of purpose and identity, giving them responsibilities, letting them know that they have a reason for being part of the family and part of the groups, part of the sports, part of whatever it is that they're doing, and I think we're going to have a better future with the men that we develop, moving forward. Yeah, okay, awesome. Well, I hope this was a blessing to you guys. Thanks for tuning in and hopefully you can tune into the next one.