Ep. 29 - The Abortion Debate, Part 3: Exploring the Psychological Effects on Mothers After an Abortion

Can economic pressures and societal influences steer life-changing decisions like abortion? In the third installment of our series, we explore the intricate emotional and psychological landscape that women navigate when considering abortion. Our conversation shifts away from rigid ideological debates, instead placing a spotlight on the realities faced by young and unmarried women. These women often find themselves grappling with financial strain, emotional appeals, and societal expectations, which can heavily influence their decision-making process. 

The aftermath of abortion is a complex journey, filled with diverse emotional reactions ranging from relief to guilt. We tackle the moral and emotional conflicts that may surface post-abortion, shedding light on how personal values, age, and social environments can shape these feelings. While some women experience distress, others do not, highlighting the deeply personal nature of this experience. We explore how societal perceptions and the paradox of pro-choice support among married women underscore the ongoing struggle for bodily autonomy and personal agency.

Emphasizing the profound impact of social support, particularly from partners and the church, we discuss how these networks can play a crucial role in healing. Compassion, understanding, and a supportive environment can significantly aid in the emotional and psychological recovery of women who have had abortions. As we conclude this series, we reflect on the delicate balance of addressing such sensitive topics and hint at the intriguing episodes awaiting our listeners, promising to keep the surprises coming.

Chapters

• 0:03 Abortion and Mental Health
• 13:44 Emotional Distress and Moral Perspectives
• 18:11 Long-Term Effects of Abortion
• 25:46 Supporting Women After Abortion
• 38:53 Upcoming Secrets and Surprises

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

All right, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. I am Tim Yance and Sam Leda, my colleague. We are addressing abortion again for part three of our series and this time we are addressing abortion and mental health. In the first two episodes we covered biblical arguments for the pro-life position and we responded to pro-choice objections and what they say about abortion. And so now we're going to turn to a little bit more of a personal nature and, dare I say, pastoral nature in some sense, and Sam is going to talk to us mostly about abortion and mental health and some of the side effects of abortion, so that our audience can be informed about that. So if you were listening to the first two episodes, you got to hear Sam ask me questions and you got to hear me drone on for almost two hours about stuff.

Speaker 1: 0:57

And so now the tables are reversed and we're going to hear from the amazing Sam Landa All right, so let's get into it, Sam. How are you doing tonight?

Speaker 2: 1:07

Doing good man.

Speaker 1: 1:08

We just knocked out two. You hanging on, yeah, yeah hanging on, man Hanging on.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Yeah, yeah, we're running a marathon tonight. So, yeah, okay, here we go. In the issue of abortion, I think our audience needs to understand that, yeah, we can make pro-life arguments, but we need to also be aware of the side effects and be informed about that, because that also is a persuasive way to talk to people who maybe are considering abortion or maybe they're just advocates for abortion policy but they don't know the real effects of abortion. So we can talk about rational and biblical arguments for the personhood of the fetus, but at the end of the day, sometimes what's persuasive is showing people the effects of a dangerous policy. As I've said before on this podcast, the famous philosopher Ayn Rand said you are free to ignore reality, but you are not free to ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yeah, it's a great quote yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Yeah, okay, so let's get into this. So, sam, what are some of the main reasons women choose abortion? What would be some of the main reasons why?

Speaker 2: 2:23

Yeah, there's about five that I listed here, but I wanted to kind of premise that with this idea that you kind of alluded to here is that you know we are making logical arguments as to you know why it is wrong, why it is not justifiable, why we need to attribute personhood and when that happens and so on. But the other part of this is that we don't always see the picture that's happening behind those who are advocating for a poor choice. Meaning we usually interact, whether it be on social media or whether it be in a classroom or face-to-face, with a friend who leans more left, more liberal, and they come at it very aggressively. That's the people that we're interacting with. It's not even the person who may be going or thinking about having the abortion, but people who are trying to defend it or defend the pro-choice movement. So one of the realities that we need to encounter is that, at the end of the day, they are people as well and that these and they're usually pretty young, I mean the. I think it's like 80, 82% of the abortions that are being had are being had by women who are outside of marriage, who are not married right. And then you take from that another percentage, how many of them are teenagers and how many of them are young women in their twenties. Now, all that to say is that, again, all of this comes back to how how it's marketed and how it's presented to them when they're trying to make that decision.

Speaker 2: 3:58

And one of the big reasons, or one of the main motivating factors that they have, is the economic considerations. Right, if you're a teenager still living with your parents, you know, don't know who the dad is, or have a boyfriend, the boyfriend doesn't have a job, and you're looking at all these things, I mean, it can be very easy to emotionally persuade someone who's in that situation and say how are you going to do this? How are you going to provide for this baby that not just needs your mental and emotional energy, but also your financial resources? What resources do you have? So they really scare, you know, these young girls or younger women into not having the resources available, and it is something to be considered. I mean, anytime a couple is planning to have a family, they are taking their economic situation into consideration. Like, can we have a baby? It could be a couple that is, you know, one's working full time, the other one part time, or they make good money and so on, and they're still considering like, hey, is now a right time for us to have a baby? You know they're planning it out and so on.

Speaker 2: 5:04

But when you have teenagers or younger adults who are making these decisions, I mean, again it's an emotional appeal Like, how are you going to do this? It's not fair to the baby that you do this, right? How are you going to feed them? How are you going to do all these things? And they're valid questions, but again, what they're doing is appealing to their emotions and trying to give them one of the reasons why they should abort their babies. Right, so bringing a child in school can create this economic situation that can lead to hardship, which no one likes. Right, it's going to impact their quality of life.

Speaker 2: 5:38

You know, typically they're still trying to figure themselves out, these younger women, and and then having a baby, just kind of changes that you know, and some would say it matures them. Others would say, well, it took me away from things that I wanted to do. And again, all of that can be true, but it's one of the reasons, one of the main reasons that people push it, because they're going to say how are you going to do this? And you know it's kind of goes back to that old saying where there's a will, there's a way. This, and you know it's kind of goes back to that old saying where there's a will, there's a way. It's just a matter of you know who. Who do you have as a support system, resources to to help you in that journey? And some people have them and some people don't.

Speaker 2: 6:15

But that's one that a lot of people, those who are pro-choice advocates, they really harp on. That one, like, how financially are they going to support this child, this baby? Right, and I mentioned in the last episode, there's tons of resources. Again, I'm going to list all those in the show notes, but there's resources available. Now more than ever, there's been this pro-life movement that has focused a lot of providing financial, physical resources for moms and their children, for families, so that's a big one. The economic consideration Another big one and we've talked about this, tim, you know, due to the feminist movement, there's this big push on one's personal and professional goals, right, this empowerment mentality, like if you have a baby, you won't be able to fulfill your goals.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Right, you won't be able to do the thing that, and even put kind of like a spiritual spin to it. You won't be able to do what God placed you on this earth to do. If you have this baby, all those dreams, just kiss them goodbye. You know, now you're just going to be a mother. And then now you have the culture that also speaks of stay-at-home mothers or women who want to be mothers. They speak of them very poorly, like oh, you're not a businesswoman, you're not a career-focused person, so you're just a mom, right, and there's that stigma attached to it. So women or young girls who are going through that experience, they already have this view of themselves that they've taken on from the culture that you're just a mom means that you're nothing, you're not really valuable to culture, you're not really valuable to society. So they kind of have this idea of they feel like they're missing out on something big in their lives, right.

Speaker 1: 7:59

So yeah, these first two sound like two sides of the same coin. One is financial hardship and the other one is like I won't get to. I won't reach my full potential.

Speaker 2: 8:09

Won't reach my full potential, right? You know this is going to destroy my entire life, and they really do paint it like that. I mean, there's people around them that will say this is going to destroy your life, Like you still got to go to school, you got to make, get your job, you got to provide for yourself. All of these things. And again, they're all very much emotional appeals with little to no moral compass. Right, and again, for those who are, the supporting system for that woman is super important, because that family or that support system can either be saying, hey, there's no way you could do this, we're not going to be helping you with this. This is your mistake. You know, go and abort the baby, Right, and it's kind of presented to them in that way. But if you have a support system that says, hey, we're going to get through this, we're going to help you out in whatever way we can. It's going to be hard, but we'll be here for you. We can. It's going to be hard, but we'll be here for you. Like, both of those women are going to have very different responses to whether or not they should have an abortion. That support system plays a huge role in the decision that they make. Oftentimes you'll also hear maybe the boyfriend who says I don't want to deal with that, you know, go and abort, I'll even pay for it, so you know. So take care of that, I don't want to deal with that, Right? So now the girl is kind of faced with this dilemma like, well, what if I want the baby but my boyfriend doesn't want the baby? Like, what do I do? And again, if you're, if we're talking specifically teenage girls, and maybe even you know young girls, young women in their twenties, I mean you could imagine just just they're still trying to figure themselves out how that dilemma is just playing with them emotionally, mentally, spiritually, everything Right. So there is this understanding of the people around them play such a crucial role into that decision the culture itself, Right, Parents and so on. But yeah, there is this huge, huge piece placed on your personal and professional goals, Right.

Speaker 2: 10:10

Another reason why there's a choice to abort is that some women will cite health concerns. Right, that could be physical or mental, but it's a critical factor in them making their decision right If they already have health issues going on. Again, sometimes that's genetic, generational, where it could be diabetes, it could be high blood pressure and so on. They see the baby as a further risking their own health. So, again, it's an emotional appeal where they'll have people in their family saying, hey, you know, this is going to make your diabetes worse or it's going to raise your blood pressure. It's a lot of stress raising a you know one-year-old, two-year-old, so on. So all of those things are things that they start thinking to themselves wow, my health is really going to decline. Not only that, now I'm also going to have to work. And what if I don't have work? What's that going to do to me mentally and physically, and so on.

Speaker 2: 11:12

So, again, they're valid reasons or concerns that they have, valid concerns that they have, but it still doesn't touch on that aspect that you elaborated on well, Tim, about personhood. Is the baby a person? And if it's, yes, there is a will, there is a way in order to be able to have the baby and still accomplish even these things that we've been talking about. Like. There are so many women who have met, who have meant to been able to reach their goals and reach you know what we'd say their potential with having their children right, and they become great moms. They learn how to balance both lives. You know their professional lives and their lives at home. You know, eventually they get to a space where you know what. I think I just want to focus on my children, right? Or I think I just want to focus on this other aspect of my life, but they put them in this gosh.

Speaker 2: 12:05

What's this called? A false dilemma I think that's what it would be referred to where they say, if you have kids, you can't have a successful life, right? But that's not really what we see. If you want to do both women, find a way to get it done. But they kind of put this thought into their minds that no, if you do have this baby, you won't be able to do any of that. And again, when you're young and still trying to figure yourself out, that does seem to be what carries the most weight in their lives, right?

Speaker 2: 12:38

And then, lastly, it not being planned right, Just the emotional and physical or psychological burden of unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. Meaning what does this mean for me? If the person goes to church, like, how are people going to view me? Right, A lot of shame is kind of brought on. That, brought onto them by. Well, you know, I was in this situation. I was having sex with my boyfriend and now you know we're pregnant. What are people going to think about me? And you know what's this going to mean for my reputation. How is this going to make my parents feel?

Speaker 2: 13:10

So I take on all these different emotions and experiences and they use that as a way to justify having an abortion. They'll say, well, I didn't really want one and I can't have one now. Not only that, it's also going to bring a lot of shame to me and my family. So better not to tell my family about it and just have this abortion. And then, you know, just sweep it under the rug, it won't be a big deal.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Have this abortion, and then, you know, just sweep it under the rug, it won't be a big deal. So those are some of the reasons why women, young teenage girls, would consider having an abortion. So again, if you look at all of them, there's some logical sense in the sense of saying that they think that they won't have the resources to provide for the baby, but at the same time, there's so many resources that are available to them that they should, that they will be able to overcome that, and I wanted to provide that, that sense of hope that there is the ability to have a child and still do the things that you've, that you've wanted to do. You're going to have to sacrifice some things, like anyone else would, but again, these are the probably the four reasons why women would consider it so it sounds like all of these reasons are some.

Speaker 1: 14:28

They're experiencing some form of distress or stress when the pregnancy comes, yeah, um, but what about distress after having an abortion? Do women experience forms of distress?

Speaker 2: 14:44

yeah, yeah, and you know, tim I I love to to hear you chime in on this one too, because there is this moral component to it where there is a lot of research that shows um women experiencing emotional distress after an abortion. You know sadness, guilt, anxieties, depression but there are other women who don't and the ones who don't it's interesting, because I just started seeing this maybe this past year, where you know how women would go on social media and they'd celebrate their abortions right they have I was just about to ask you about that.

Speaker 2: 15:20

Yeah, yeah, I mean you can get to that point where you completely numb yourself to something that is morally wrong. That affected you. I'm sure the first time and the only way to cope with that is to see more behavior of the same, to convince yourself that what you're doing is okay, right, so the more you repeat a certain behavior, the more you believe that. Well, if this aligns with your values, there's not going to be any inner turmoil or conflict about it. Right? It's like people who never grew up with their parents drinking. Right. If their parents never drink any alcohol in their life. For them, having a sip is morally wrong. Right. If their parents did drink a lot, for them they may want to avoid drinking at all so that they don't see you know how they'll be when they're completely drunk. So meaning that for people who are around others who celebrate abortion, you're going to have a less stigma attached to it. If that's all you ever heard, like that it's okay and that it's not that bad, you're not going to really feel the impact of that, right? So your surroundings again going back to that point plays a huge role on whether or not you feel guilt over that decision, but there is, especially with the first ones. Age makes a big difference too Because, remember, as we mature, we grow in our understanding of ourselves and we look back at certain decisions and we say, wow, you know, why did I make that decision? That was not a good decision. You know, people who are a little bit older have already kind of solidified maybe not their identity but their conscience and how their conscience responds to certain things. So they might not feel, you know, 40 year old or 35 year old having an abortion is not going to feel the same way that a teenage girl would feel having an abortion right.

Speaker 2: 17:18

And again, I made the point earlier that the majority of women who are having abortions are not wed, they're not married. You know, I think it's 82% of them. So it's not married couples, it's not women who are married who are having these abortions, which means that they are planning. But it's an interesting and it's an important point to make, because marriage, a big part of marriage, is growing a family, right. But it's always interesting to me to see people who are married, women who are married, and being pro-choice advocates, because it's just kind of it doesn't make any sense based on the decisions that they're making right. It's just kind of it doesn't make any sense based on the decisions that they're making, right, but that goes back to maybe one of the reasons is kind of control over their own bodies, right, so they'll make that argument you shouldn't tell another woman what to do with her body and so on.

Speaker 2: 18:11

But, yeah, there's definitely the stress that's felt. Some women, though, they express feeling relief after having an abortion, and I have some arguments or some reasons why that would be. So you imagine the turmoil and stress that's felt. I have to make this decision, and they're thinking about it for weeks, maybe months, before making that decision. And once they do, even though they choose to abort the baby, you can see how there would be a sense of relief of not having to think about that anymore.

Speaker 2: 18:48

But later on they start to reflect and start to think, and then it hits them later, right, it's one of those things where you don't feel it right away and it surprises you when you see someone else who just had a newborn baby, or when you see someone playing with their child right who just had a newborn baby, or we see someone playing with their child right. So it's one of those things where the way that the brain handles traumatic events is that if it can't cope with it because it's too much, it just pushes it away. So it's fragmented in your brain in different places. It's emotional, it's also chemical, it's also thoughts that you have dreams, maybe, right.

Speaker 1: 19:21

Flashbacks is one of those. These are all coping mechanisms that could arise from having an abortion.

Speaker 2: 19:28

Yes, yes, flashbacks, sweating at night, nightmares, all of these different things. I've heard some women who talk about hearing their baby's voices and so on and having dreams about what they would be like. But you know, the only way to cope with something so traumatic like that, especially the first and second time around, is to just ignore it. But you know, we know, in counseling you can't ignore something forever.

Speaker 1: 19:55

Do any of them develop PTSD?

Speaker 2: 19:58

Yeah, great question. So it's interesting that number PTSD diagnosis not as many as we would think. Right, because it is such. It is a traumatic experience.

Speaker 2: 20:09

But this comes back to how do they view their abortion right? How much have they numbed their conscience where they don't feel that guilt about that right? How much have they numb their conscience where they don't feel that guilt about that right? What were their beliefs prior? Who's in their surroundings? Because if everyone in their surroundings sees it as normal, there's no reason to traumatize something that's normal right. That's seen as normal right.

Speaker 2: 20:34

So we wouldn't say someone who goes through a, you know, like one of the tornadoes and it destroys their home, maybe kills one of their family members or something like that, like that's a traumatic event. No one would normalize that right. So for them, if they have an abortion and they have people around them who say, oh, how could you do that? You know that's horrible, you know, you know that's a sin, you know we're Christians, we don't believe that way, right, they're going to have a much more, a stronger tendency towards PTSD than someone who doesn't have that right. So it's surroundings-based, it's their conscience. What are they feeling? What are they thinking? What are their values regarding abortion, but they don't develop the diagnosis PTSD. But they definitely develop a lot of the symptoms related to PTSD and I mentioned a couple of those, like the nightmares and flashbacks and so on.

Speaker 1: 21:26

So okay. So what would be then? What might be the longterm effects? We're talking law down the road, you know, longterm, they've had time to reflect, you know. Uh, as the christian song says, when the music fades and all this slipped away, yeah, that's a bad joke. Okay, let's just back up. I was trying to make a joke. I was like that was, that was a bad joke. Okay, we'll keep that in, I guess. But yeah, yeah, when it's long gone, they're older now, what are some effects?

Speaker 2: 22:09

Guilt, shame, what, always a contributor to anything that's trauma oriented, because it takes on the identity right. Guilt is I did something wrong. Shame is I am wrong, I am bad for doing that thing. Right. So it takes on this identity piece. So they may see themselves as incapable of loving, like how could I love a child? Or how could I love another person when I killed a person? How can I even be a good spouse? Can I think of my spouse in such a way where I don't want to be around them? I didn't want something and look at the extent that I went to in order to avoid that Responsibility-wise. How does that affect the way that they view responsibility? Right Other things. If I can get rid of it and it's easy for me to do that then will I take that same approach to other areas of my life. Right, and again, this always comes back to the social support system that a person has. They create our worldview, right? There's the saying that says, like tell me who your close five friends are and you're the amalgam of that. Right, You're the whole total of those five people, and I think there's a lot of truth to that and I think that plays a role here.

Speaker 2: 23:36

When it comes to making this decision of you know, should you or should you not abort a baby is what are the people around you telling you? Is it mixed? You have some friends who are okay with it, some who are not right, so that's going to play a role in it, but I often see that it's support one way or the other, meaning that if you're pro-choice, you're probably spending time or your close friends are mostly pro-choice. If you're pro-life, you probably have more friends who are pro-life. However, the emotional appeal is very, very strong.

Speaker 2: 24:13

So, even if someone who is pro-life believes pro-life and they have friends who are pro-life, if you have people who are pro-choice, that emotional appeal of you're not going to be able to fulfill your dreams. Do you really want this responsibility? How are you going to do it? All those questions become much more real and put pressure on making this decision much more real and put pressure on making this decision. So, even if you are surrounded by pro-life friends, you're still probably going to look at it and consider, like, am I doing the right thing? Right, unless you have the strong value and belief that it is a life, that it is a person, as we've stated before, and choose not to abort the baby.

Speaker 1: 25:01

You know, it's interesting too, Tim.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 25:04

I was going to ask you alluded to this when you were talking earlier how does having an abortion impact a woman's future romantic relationships? You just alluded to it, so I want to kind of expand on that one.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Yeah, yeah, it's so. The ability, the ability to bond, is impacted, because one of the things that that's a very common behavior for those who are having abortions is that they're usually pretty sexually active, right? So it's not necessarily the abortion itself, it's what led to the abortion. And maybe after that, what does it do? Right, they're living a certain type of lifestyle that is going to affect future relationships. So maybe at the individual level, they'll feel shame and guilt and remorse, maybe even anger at the decision. So at the individual level, they'll have to deal with that level. They'll have to deal with that. But at a relationship level, whatever behaviors and patterns were leading up to that and after that, what happened after that? They're going to carry that over into their relationships. Right, establishing boundaries.

Speaker 2: 26:22

So if the girl had sex with the guy and the guy says I want you to abort the baby and puts pressure on her, well, if her value was no, I really do believe that this is that. This is a person, you know, I don't want to abort the baby. So, right there, if she wasn't able to stand up to the guy and say, no, I'm not going to abort the baby, that's a lack of boundaries. So a lack of boundaries then continues on into further, into future relationships where you're not able to establish boundaries, and boundaries are established by the values that you hold. So whatever values she had at the time is what's going to give her the strength to establish boundaries in the future, right? So is it to make him happy? If, my, if in her mentality, it's to make her significant other happy, she's not going to set up boundaries, right? She didn't set it up when you, when you had to take a life into consideration, that you were going to, you know, abort a baby, and um, and you made that decision. That means that the other person's happiness or the other pressure that we talked about influenced you so much to make that decision right.

Speaker 2: 27:35

So the inability to establish boundaries, that affects relationships, because then whatever they want her to do and again that could be anything else doesn't have to be just abortion, but anything else in the relationship she's going to do, she's going to be willing to do in order to maintain that relationship. Again, I didn't look at the statistics of this, but you also want to look at the involvement of the father. What's the involvement of the father's life in the life of the woman, the daughter, the young girl and I'm going to you know, I think confidently guess that it's probably not a positive relationship, because if they're being sexually active early when they're young, young teens, that usually indicates a lack of close relationship with the father, if it's habitual, right. So again, that sets up the dynamic for future relationships.

Speaker 1: 28:27

All right. So what about this question that we mentioned some pastoral considerations? How should the church respond to women who have had abortion? Now, this is sort of a theological question, but let's talk about it in terms of just how to talk to these kind of women. Or maybe, what should Christians be aware of when they're dealing with a woman who has had an abortion? So, how should the church respond to women who've had an abortion or many, uh, when they seek help, when they're seeking help?

Speaker 2: 28:59

yeah and no. And it's one of those those good questions where, um, like we think we know what to do, but when we try to play we don't do right and we actually may do more harm. So a big part of this is especially when they're young. I mean, gosh, I can't tell you. You know, I've known a couple of people who had children very young, 15, 16. I mean, and then I look at them you're kids, like you're kids and you're you have, they have the baby face, everything, and they're about to have a baby. And what are you going to do? Like, are you going to shame that kid for their mistake and decision and just doom them for the rest of their lives Like they made a mistake. They made that decision, it was a bad decision, but they know that now they're going to feel the effects of their lives. Like they made a mistake. They made that decision, it was a bad decision, but they know that now they're going to feel the effects of that.

Speaker 2: 29:54

And for us as believers, as the church, we want to come into that like that kind of that parenting role because, again, it's likely that one or both of the parents are not heavily involved, but as a church we often replace those missing pieces in these children's lives, these teenagers' lives, that we can play a significant, huge role of grace and truth and love for that child Right. So if they're looking for help, that's like a huge positive sign, because why would they seek help when they can't even go to their parents? Why would they even seek out help from the church, like why it doesn't make any sense. But if you can present and it's hard because you're stuck with your values right Us as adults, or even, as you know, younger adults, we have the value of no, this is wrong, I wouldn't do that. And we say that to ourselves. And then here's someone who does this. So we're in a conflict of.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Here's what I believe. And if I show love to this person, somehow there's this belief that that means you accept the decision that they made, or that you approve of what's happening. And that's not the case. I think that's. I think some Christians believe that that if you meet that person, that child, where they are, that somehow that means that you agree with their decision. It doesn't, and they know that All they see is here's someone who I thought would not see me in a positive light, is trying to help me and they're giving me comfort and they're listening to me and they know that I made a mistake, but they're here, right, and that's what they need. They're kids, they're kids. Now, again, for those of you who are having a struggle with that, because I used to feel like that too I felt like, well, if I go and I try to meet their need, then that means that I'm approving of that and it doesn't. One doesn't exclude, doesn't have to mean that you're supporting them or being there for them, doesn't mean that you approve what they did, but it does show that you love and care for them enough that you're willing to walk with them as they work through that struggle, because they don't know how to make sense of that.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Now, what if it's someone who's older, someone in their 20s, and again, usually it's younger teens, younger 20s and so on? Now they're older, but they still have the same need the comfort, care, attention. But they still have the same need the comfort, care, attention. You know, just trying to understand without you can try to understand without proving or affirming the decision. And if it's in a Christian setting, if it's in a church, usually no one thinks oh yeah, people are okay with this right Now. There's a bunch of different types of churches, some churches that may approve it, but I'm not talking about those For churches that teach from scripture, that teach that, yes, abortion is wrong, but that is also able to show a loving, caring presence, that we're willing to help you and walk with you as you try to figure this out right. So that's one aspect, tim. What would you add to that from?

Speaker 2: 32:50

a teaching perspective.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Well, I mean, I would say if they're seeking help. You know, I think Christians need to church, just need to understand that there's forgiveness of the cross and the Lord can forgive abortion, and the Lord can forgive abortion. So if a woman has made that mistake, they are not beyond redemption Right, that's true.

Speaker 1: 33:19

Now, the flip side of that, if there's women who are promoting or celebrating abortions or advocating for it, I mean that's a whole nother matter. I mean that could get into all kinds of different angles, Like are they members of the church or not? Like yeah, kind of a complicated question. But if there's women who genuinely are wondering does God love me? Is there still hope for me, Is there a place for me in the church, All those things, I think that Christians really need to focus their attention toward them and emphasize the forgiveness of God and the mercy of God to forgive.

Speaker 2: 34:11

Yeah, that's good, that's good. And you know you also brought up the other point too, of it's a different approach when you have someone who is looking for help, who feels the weight of that sin and feels like you know, I really messed up, I need help, I want you to help me. Or even if they're just kind of sitting back and waiting. You know it's not easy to go up to people and say I need help, but you know about and just showing their presence to them, say, hey, how can I help you? Like, what do you need? You know as you prepare to have this baby, or can I be there for you? You know, as they're considering that decision, because a lot of times they don't talk about it, right, it's done in secret.

Speaker 2: 34:50

So again, this comes down to being in tune with the people in our church. You know, knowing the families, knowing people right, because again, they're not going to tell their parents, right. So it's this is where we really miss it today. It's almost like you know, church finishes and you know we all can fall into this where church finishes and we're gone. Right, we don't really take the time to get to know the people in our church anymore Like we. We used to war in smaller churches, but that used to be a thing that you wouldn't know, things that were going on within within the church. Now churches are so big it's hard to know who's going through that, you know. So if you can create at least a, a, a presence where you are able to stand for truth but you're willing to walk alongside people as they're going through suffering, that can set a different type of culture for the church where, when people do make these mistakes, that we can be there to help them.

Speaker 2: 35:45

So especially again, I especially think about just the young teenage moms who need a lot of help and support. You know that's again, that's very different than the older. You know 30, 35 year old liberal woman who's you know saying how many 20 abortions she had and is boasting about it. You know it's a different approach. And, yeah, both painful, but you know it's a different approach. And, um, yeah, both painful, but uh, you know it's hard. I can't even think of how I would interact with someone who would be so boastful about something like that. You know they still need jesus, right, but regarding my engagement with him, I don't know how I would respond to that.

Speaker 1: 36:27

It'd be tough yeah, I mean someone like that is probably so callous in their conscience and in their heart. I mean it would take an act of god to, yeah, to reveal to them you know what, what they're doing wrong, you know. Not to say you just throw your hands up, but but, um, I think we just need to recognize that sometimes even the best rational arguments aren't going to persuade someone when there's a moral barrier of their hardened conscience in the way that also can erect spiritual barriers as well. Yeah so, yeah, we do the best we can. Okay any closing comments before we wrap it up as well. Yeah, so, yeah, we do the best we can. Okay Any closing comments before we wrap it up.

Speaker 2: 37:15

No, I think just that this was an important topic. I'm glad we covered it and hopefully it's helpful to those who are listening, as you encounter, you know these topics and maybe encounter people who have experienced this. So hopefully you found this series helpful and again, feel free to comment, send us questions, send us new topics and, yeah, as we continue kind of doing these various series, we really enjoyed them, so hope you guys have too.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Yeah, and I would say if by any chance, you know there's someone listening who is considering an abortion, or they know someone considering an abortion, there are pregnancy centers all over the country and I would encourage you to go visit one. Or if you know of a person who's considering abortion, encourage that person to go visit a pregnancy center. They give free ultrasounds and free advice and counsel on what to do, free resources for how to care for your child afterward, and try to get the church involved. We can't just be pro-life when it comes to the unborn. We also to continue to live out being pro-life for the entire family, including single moms or teenagers who find themselves with a child or anything like that.

Speaker 1: 38:35

There's women who need help in that sense and the church really has a responsibility to those in their congregation who are now right with the Lord and want to live right. Church needs to come around them and help them. So, yeah, I would say that's just my closing advice. Yeah, All right. Well, I think that does it. We just did a three-part series on abortion, pro-life issues, Sam. We haven't been canceled yet. No man, we're either doing something really right or really wrong.

Speaker 2: 39:04

I'm not sure.

Speaker 1: 39:05

Yeah, yeah, all right, everyone. Well, we will see you next time. What kind of series do we got coming up? Do we know, or do we just want to keep it a secret at this point?

Speaker 2: 39:14

Let's keep it a secret, let's surprise everyone, because we do have some good ones up and loaded and we have some new topics that we want to cover as well. And yeah, I'm excited.

Speaker 1: 39:23

Yeah, yeah, I'll say, you know, there's some uh spooky episodes coming up.

Speaker 2: 39:27

maybe you know, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, all righty, all right, everyone take care.