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Psych and Theo Podcast
Welcome to the "Psych and Theo Podcast". We’re your hosts, Sam and Tim. Join us as we tackle cultural issues by providing insightful discussions from both a theological and psychological perspective.
From celebrity pastors and church controversies to hot-button topics like abortion, gay marriage, and gender identity, we address these issues with grace, humor, knowledge, and wisdom. If you’re looking for thought-provoking conversations on church culture, pop culture, mental health, moral issues, and all things related to the Bible, then you’ve come to the right place.
We do our best to bring our unique perspectives to navigating the complexities of faith and culture through the lens of theology and psychology.
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 26 - Gentle Dangerous Men Series, Part 3: Masculinity, Faith, and Genuine Manhood w/ John Reid
What does it mean to be a man in today's world? Join us as we tackle this profound question with John Reed, a senior fellow at the Hungry Foundation in Budapest and a man of many hats. From training law students on landmark Supreme Court cases to serving as a Marine MP protecting Presidents Bush and Obama, John brings a wealth of experience to our conversation. Raised in a devout Christian family in Southern California, John shares how his faith and diverse background shaped his views on manhood and masculinity.
Our discussion takes a humorous turn as we reminisce about a chance encounter at Starbucks that led to a church community, and the transformative impact of the 2009 Passion Conference. We reflect on the flaws of the "alpha male" mentality within Christian circles, contrasting it with biblical teachings on leadership and humility. John and I critique the behavior of some prominent figures in the Reformed Christian nationalist community, emphasizing the importance of aligning actions with Christ-like values. We also share advice for men on avoiding the pitfalls of seeking validation through overt displays of masculinity.
The episode wraps up with a deep dive into John's journey from military service to higher education and a career in politics. We discuss his transition from working with CBN News to the Family Research Council and Liberty University's Standing for Freedom Center. Highlighting character, moral courage, and self-control as essential qualities of godly manhood, John offers a refreshing perspective on navigating masculinity in a world rife with stereotypes. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that challenges conventional notions of manhood and encourages a humble, genuine approach to life.
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Before we begin our conversation, Tim, is there anything that you'd like to add? Before we start a conversation with John Reed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just want to say John is a good personal friend of both of ours. We've known John for many years and looking forward to talking with him about this. He's got a lot of experiences and a lot of things he could talk to us about from different angles on manhood. So, john, as we get started, give us, before we get into your life and testimony, just tell us who you are, what are you doing now, where have you worked in the past and things like that kind of a short bio of what you do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's super great to be on this show. I like watching all your clips and listening to what you guys would say. I think you guys are giving a very, very good. You're contributing to a community of people not just Christians but non-Christians as well who really don't get to hear this anywhere else. I mean, this is a very niche market. You guys are doing psychology and theology, expertise in both. So really really like what you guys are doing. There's a market for it and you do it well.
Speaker 3:Now my background. So I'm currently a senior fellow with the Hungry Foundation. I'm living here in Budapest. I've been in Budapest, hungary, since September of last year and I'll be returning to the States here in about a month. What I do here is I work with a law center. Who works in our law center basically takes in students who are in law school various law schools across Hungary and we give them some advanced training. I'm not a lawyer, but I covered the Supreme Court for six years as a journalist, and so they contracted me to come in and provide lectures on several Supreme Court cases Dobbs that overturned Roe, some free speech cases, masterpiece Cake Shop, 303, creative and others. So that's what I'm doing here.
Speaker 3:But the six years preceding that I was in journalism in various capacities. I was with CBN News Family Research Council. I was the editor-in-chief for Liberty University's Standing for Freedom Center. Before that I was with CBN News Family Research Council. I was the editor-in-chief for Liberty University's Standing for Freedom Center. Before that I was in the Marines. I did that for two terms. I was a military police, did a couple years in Japan, did security detail for Presidents Bush and President Obama, got to travel all around the country, all around the world. It was a blast. And before that, as a kid I grew up in the dirt, riding four-wheeler, shooting guns during the day and then I performed in theater at night. So kind of an eclectic upbringing, but I did come out on the masculine side of that theater time all right.
Speaker 2:well, tell us a little bit about your life then, like where you started maybe not as a baby, but like you know where you grew up and then tell us how you came to know the Lord, and then we'll get into your military background after that. But just kind of tell us your upbringing, and I guess I'm assuming you came to the Lord at an early age, but maybe it was later. So let's just start with where you grew up and then right up to the time you went into the military. Put it that way.
Speaker 3:So I grew up in Southern California and I surfaced as a conservative. Believe it or not, but I grew up in Southern California, grew up in the church, a very God-fearing family. My father was always an elder or a Bible teacher in our church. My mom taught at church and she did community evangelism. We had people at our house all the time for bible studies. So I was very, very much brought up in that environment. I did a lot of back. I was pioneer of the year in uh 19. Well, we don't need to talk about what 19 it was but it was in the 19 1909 pioneer of the year.
Speaker 3:I still have the trophy, I think probably somewhere at my mom's house. Um, I grew up, you did, uh, all the seven youth group and so you know I was very much in that atmosphere and I and I did love the lord at a young age. I really did. Um, you're only going to be able to be tested so much as a kid, you know. Most of the time, I mean, some children have strenuid circumstances, but my faith became even stronger, much stronger, when I went into the military, and that's who you want to segue into that now, dan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, tell us what you did in the military. You were, I dare say, former Marine, but then I'm always corrected and saying there are no former Marines, there are just Marines. What you did in the military, you were, yeah, uh, you were, I, I was, I dare say, former marine, but then I'm always corrected and saying there are no former marines, there are just marines. So tell us about your time yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, um, my dad was a marine um I say was because he's he's now deceased, but you know he was in the marines um, and you know he he loved his time um, and I knew a lot of guys. I, I'm that guy who I don't see any services better than the other. I just see each service has their own strengths. The Marines offered what I particularly wanted with that challenge. That's what I went for. Went in as an MP since my dad was an MP. Originally I was going to do five years that was the original For MPs. It was five years and so did that. Originally I was going to do five years.
Speaker 2:That was the original for MPs it was five years. Most most contracts is four, but MPs were five. For those who are listening.
Speaker 3:Mp stands for military police. Yeah, military police. Yeah, and I I a lot of guys go in as a military police with the the ultimate desire of becoming a cop when they get out. I didn't really have that desire, I just wanted to have some fun, so I did that. I did a year in training basic training and advanced, you go on and then I did two years in Japan. Now, when I was in Japan, I did a whole variety of things. I did basic patrol, I did physical security, which is surveillance systems, and then one of the little side gigs I was sent for training to do was I was a DARE officer. So if you remember DARE McGruff, the Crime Dog, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:DARE Drug Abuse, Resistance Education. So I did that DARE to say no DARE to say no, that's right, and and I actually wore the McGruff crime dog costume once. Do you have pictures of that?
Speaker 2:Well, yes, I do.
Speaker 3:You could just Google pictures of McGruff and say it's me under that, but I actually do have pictures of me in there. But yeah, so I did that. And what's really fun is that you meet people. This is really true of anything in life but people you meet you keep in touch with. So my boss when I was in Japan his name is Kirk Hood, he was. He was my section leader, one of the best leaders I've ever had to the day. Really good guy, really. He set himself apart from other Marine leaders in that he wasn't that guy who felt like he had to just go barking around to people. He was very much a coach, mentor type of leader. And that stuck with me when I was promoted to sergeant later and had my own platoon. But I got to know his family. His daughter was in elementary school, his son was a toddler right. I have since been to both of their high school graduations. I went to her wedding. I was there for her son's first birthday and his daughter she's grown up her son's first birthday and then their son is now in the Navy. So the time goes very fast. I don't feel like I've aged at all, but you know, everyone else has grown up and it's really cool to think that, well, I keep in touch with them. Still they actually live between Lynchburg and DC. Now they're retired there. So yeah, so I did that.
Speaker 3:But I was also involved with my church. I was involved with my chaplains, I led worship here and there, and that was that. Well, then I moved to quantico. Now this is actually work. It's kind of interesting. Uh, after japan, I only had two years left on my original five-year contract.
Speaker 3:But when I was in japan, a security officer from a unit called hmx1, came1, came to Okinawa to do some recruiting. Now HMX-1 is the president's white top helicopter squadron, so HMX-1 is in charge of all the transit, security and everything for the president when he's traveling. So I thought to myself there's no way I'm going to get it, but I'll go for it. Well, my boss put a glowing recommendation in there and I got an interview and I'm like, oh, this isn't whatever I interviewed and they got me. I'm like, okay, so everything kept happening. I'm like, wow, this is wild. So I got accepted. But the thing is they said the only problem is this is a four-year assignment because you have to get a top-secret security clearance, which takes a long time and it costs the government a lot of money, and so they want to make sure they get their time out of it right. So they said if you want to do it, we'll start the clearance process, but you have to agree now to do four years. Extend two years more, so you have four years total. Extend two years more, so you have four years total. Or you can be stationed back near where your home is in California. Finish out your two years, so both of them seem pretty appealing.
Speaker 3:I actually remember this is kind of weird, but I remember the discussion that really sold me. I was actually in the bathroom at the police department out in japan where I was working, um, and the guy from the pentagon who was in charge of uh, transitioning guys all around happened to be in there too, and so we started talking and, yeah, I told him my situation. I told him, well, you know, here's my options, yada, yada, and he said he basically was saying, in summary, he's like what's two extra years? And he and he's also, by the way, he was a lifer he did like I think 25, 30 years uh in the military. But he was also really good to tell guys, look, it's not for you. It's not for you, um, because he wasn't in charge of keeping guys in. He was just in charge of getting those who are in to where they need to be. So he was very honest. It didn't benefit him to keep anybody in, and so I thought thought I'd learn more about it, and I'm like you know what I want to do this. I was 21 at the time and I had just taken a trip during high school with my family out to DC and I really liked it and I'm like you know what I'd like to go back. So then I rotated out to Washington D Quantico, dc area, and that began the next four years of my life.
Speaker 3:Very quickly got plugged into a church Grace Baptist Church, right there in Woodbridge, virginia, very influential, and I met a lot of great people there. It's funny, I was actually at Starbucks reading a book by john piper I forget which one. It was probably desiring god or one of them, uh, and this was early 2007, this is beginning of 2007. I'd only been there for a couple months, um, and I didn't know where to go to church. Well, anyway, some, some people walked in, saw me reading it and they're like oh, we actually just saw John Piper speak at Passion Conference and so we started to talk and that's how I learned about that church.
Speaker 3:Oh, I got a funny story. So, like any single dude Christian single dude who likes coffee well, obviously I like coffee because I'm a Christian. If you're a Christian, you have to like coffee. But I was at a Starbucks a few weeks before and I really wanted to get to know Christians, right? Well, this was back in the day when it was cool to have a song as your ringtone, right, we don't have songs anymore, yeah, we don't do that anymore.
Speaker 3:In fact, we don't even keep our ringtones on anymore, Dude let's bring that back.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes yes, absolutely okay, yes, yes, absolutely, let's do it. We gotta wait for gen alpha to do it. Gen z didn't catch on, but gen alpha, they'll do it.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's the only reason I'll actually have my phone on. Here's the deal. I turned the volume. I was at starbucks, jeremy camp, um, I think it was we give you glory was the song that I had, right? Well, I'm sitting there and there's these two girls, these two cute girls like one table over and they have their Bibles out and I'm like, so I text my sister and I'm like, hey, call me, actually call me, and I had the phone there. She calls me and I'm like, oh, and I, like I somehow pretended to delay, so there's, like you know, three or four seconds, like they clearly knew. I picked it up and I talked, I I, you know, I forgot when I said I improvised something. I'm good at improvising, I'm a journalist, right, um, so anyway, I hang up and the girls it worked. The girls stayed up like oh, was that jeremy camp.
Speaker 3:I'm like yeah, we started talking. You know smooth yes yes why I should try to do that now and I'm like almost I should go back to my old ways, but it didn't work. They were a different denomination to me and it wasn't working out. But still like it's cool that that happens. So, anyways, got involved with the church there.
Speaker 2:John, be honest. Were they Calvinists? Is that why no, they were Church of Christ, so I don't think they were either so that I don't think they were either.
Speaker 3:That was great, um, but yeah, so I got involved in a really good church there and I I helped out with the young adult group, uh, led the weekend camps, you know all that fun stuff, um, and my goal was to actually go back home and be a firefighter. So in 2007 I still had like three and a half, four years left I actually signed up at the local fire department out in town and I mean they sent me through all the training Firefighter One Academy, emt, you know, hazard Ops or whatever it's called. So you get all the training. Those departments are so nice, all the equipment's brand new and everything. And so you know, that's what I wanted to do before, that's what I wanted to do in high school and I figured I would just do it after the Marines. So I did several years three, three and a half years at the fire department. But then I might get a little Pentecostal here.
Speaker 3:I was at Passion Conference in 2009. Yeah, because it was the Passion right before I got out in 2010. And I just spelled this comment from the Lord saying you're not doing the fire department, you're going into ministry. Ish, and I don't know what that meant. I didn't know what that meant. I still don't know what it means, but I've been doing it. It's just something, something else, that's more specifically, ministerial Um. And so I, you know, seven months later, got out Um, I went to Biola University. That's where my sister went, that's where a couple of my aunts went. Oh wait, wait, we're sorry, I jumped out of the military.
Speaker 2:That's okay. That's okay, yeah, so let's, before we get into how you came to where you be where you be now, let's not even write good grammar. Tell us, tell, just so we want to talk a little bit about. This episode is about manhood and we're going to talk about alpha, male, beta, male stuff. But before we get to the alpha and beta topic, just tell us a little bit about what you think you learned through the military about manhood maybe good and bad through the military about manhood maybe good and bad.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's a good question and you know you can apply it. I learned it in the military. But there's other ways it can be applied to, and that is don't put your identity and masculinity into what culture says. Don't put your masculine identity into what women want it to be, what other men want it to be. Don't put it into anything other than just being a good protective person. That's it.
Speaker 3:I think masculinity is rather simple than what it's become. There's like three different sections and we can elaborate on this more. But you have your people who are saying masculinity is bad. And you have these men who are these, you know, beta characters and who and they did, they want to be like they, they pursue that. And then you have the guys who are like no, we are traditional men, we provide, we protect. Um, you know we wear flannels. You know I put this flannel on for this episode. I got two air conditionings running at the house right now because it's hot here in Budapest, but I wanted to have the flannel on for this one, you know, just doing manly stuff. But then you have the other guys who take that and really, really twist it. Yeah, I will say, maybe five years ago, toxic masculinity was simply guys who were men's men, but they were abusive, they were disrespectful and all that right. Well, now there's that and a subcomponent of men who will say that they're good masculine men, they're Christian men, but man, they have distorted it so much. But I'll elaborate on that more because I know that's something we'll talk about in the military.
Speaker 3:What I saw was a lot of guys who are, uh, they put their identity in being a marine. You know, I was like, oh, I bleed green. Oh, you know, that was the other. I'm like, okay, like I get it. I was that guy who's like okay, I, I didn't scoff at tradition, I like tradition, it's fun. But at the same time, it wasn't always rational, it wasn't always like reasonable. You know, it's like, okay, um, so, but you're gonna have that. You're like, oh, I'm a marine, therefore I have to drink a lot. I'm a marine, therefore I have to sleep with a lot of women. I'm a marine, therefore I have to do this.
Speaker 3:And that's what happens when you put your masculine identity into a culture, says, or into a specific isolated segment. You know military, or you know fire department, or you know MMA fighters, you know all these guys, but they get so focused on this thing, um, and they don't think for themselves, they don't become independent, they don't become wise, and it's like those are. Those are marks against your masculinity right now. Because, yeah, masculinity or wisdom, um, you know, restraint and these, these kinds of characteristics, those kind of characteristics aren't cutting down a tree, it's not lifting weights, but it's still being a man, it's being a leader, it's being a protective provider. All those things wisdom and restraint go into that. And so, yeah, once you start putting your masculine identity into something that is culturally developed, then it's so easily distorted at that point so that's, that's kind of what you recognized.
Speaker 2:Do you recognize that early on in the military, or was that a little bit later through? Oh, so, early on, early on, you picked up on that is that.
Speaker 1:Did you fall into that type of thinking, john, at any point, like was it tempting to, or you kind of knew your identity and were able to? Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 3:I didn't, I really didn't, and glory to god for it. Um, I just always kind of rolled my eyes at it. And you know there are some guys, even in the military, who are like, oh, this sucks, and they don't pursue any kind of excellence, and I'm like, okay, that's, that's bad, that's beta, that's beta two. You know there are some guys who try to be that alpha guy in some ways, but they slack off in other areas and I'm like you know what? I'm not going to be that bleed green Marine who you know gets not, the tattoos are bad but, like you know, they get all these Marine tattoos everywhere in my face. I am going to do more of the education that I'm already required to do. I am going to shoot really well and train to shoot even better. And I did all those things and I was promoted quickly for it. So it's like you can pursue excellence in a masculine-esque type of area without being this machismo alpha guy who doesn't actually show restraint. So when I was a platoon sergeant this is going to sound weird and you're going to laugh at me, and that's okay my superiors and my colleagues, my peers, called me Sergeant Hug-A-Bunch. Hug-a-bunch. Hug-a-bunch Because, like my boss in Okinawa, kirk Hood.
Speaker 3:I took the coaching role. If I have a guy who's messing up, and especially if it's a guy who I know to be a good dude, I'm like, okay, we're going to sit down or I'm going to take him aside. I'm not just going to shout at him. I'm not going to be that guy who just falls into this brainwashed method of hollering just because I'm a sergeant. It's like that's dumb, that's weak. That's weak because it shows that you're not strong enough or willing to pursue your own leadership style or to better, and my platoon always did very well, we always did very well because of it. So I don't say that to brag. I just say that to show that there is a difference between the machismo for being machismo and machismo because you want to better be a provider, protector um guider oh gotcha.
Speaker 2:Sergeant hug a bunch sounds like. Uh, sounds like a character you could get at build a bear store or something you know like. Make me a sergeant hug a bunch. It's like a. It's like a bear with a marine outfit on All right.
Speaker 3:They also started calling me hair plugs towards the end of my time, because, well, what is now manifest is this beautiful egg dome up here. A little bit of receding.
Speaker 2:John, you sport the bald head. Well, thank you. Yeah, you really do, yeah. Well you got the beard to go with it, so it's good, can I tell that story real quick, 45 seconds. Sure.
Speaker 3:COVID Lockdown Early 2020.
Speaker 1:Covid took your hair.
Speaker 3:COVID took my hair. I'm in this house in the DC area all by myself.
Speaker 3:And do you guys remember Dollar Shave Club? Oh, all by myself. And do you guys remember Dollar Shave Club? Oh, yeah, dollar Shave Club. So I signed up for Dollar Shave Club like in 2019 or late 18, something like that and it was a thing where it was like five bucks a month, you get four blades, right? Well, I had hair at the time and a beard, so I wasn't going through blades. I shaved my neck and trimmed. You get a blade could last a month and I forgot to cancel it. So every month I'm docked five bucks and I get these razors and they kept piling up anyways.
Speaker 3:2020 rolls around. I'm in this house by myself. Roommate moved out. I have nowhere to go. I'm like I'm gonna do something I've wanted to do for a while. I'm gonna shave my head, I'm gonna see how it looks with the beard and if I don't like it, no one's gonna see me for weeks. You know, whatever, and I liked it, I still have razors. I still have razors. I have not paid for a haircut and I have not bought a razor since in early 2020.
Speaker 1:Have you canceled the subscription?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 2:Well, all the razor companies went woke, john, so we're going to have to find some other source for you when you run out. Maybe you can make your own Jeremy's razors hug a bunch razors, all right okay, so, uh, okay.
Speaker 2:So lessons in manhood don't conform, don't base your masculinity on whatever subculture you find yourself in. It sounds like the big lesson that you learned there. And I can, I can, you know, just my own time, short time in the military. I was basic training, ait with the army, then six years in the guard, and I saw that too, there was a. There's a subculture um, with each branch and then with each specialty within each branch. You know, I was a um, I was in the chaplain corps, uh, and so, uh, as a chaplain assistant I'm running around, I got to interact with lots of different units and all the different specialties have their own personalities and you have the infantry guys that some of those guys in there they're really young and they're really impressionable and they just base their whole identity on being an infantryman. And others are like I'm artillery and then artillery people do this and we do that and it's sad to see sometimes, you know, like really young guys. They base their whole identity on a subculture that they find themselves in.
Speaker 2:Rather than I like what you said. When you think for yourself, you become wise, you can separate yourself out from those group think mentalities, so okay. So let's get into now post-military. You went to Biola let's fast forward a bit, just for time's sake. So tell us about Biola. And then you eventually came to Liberty, and then you eventually went into political stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I went to Biola stuff. Yeah, so, um, I went to biola. I actually almost went to liberty after I got out of the military but, uh, you know, I'd been away from california for seven years. At that point, you know, I wanted to go back home. So I went home, went to biola, um, and but the reason I knew about liberty is because when I was, when I was at quantico, I had friends from my church who were students of liberty, so I would go down and visit on the weekends. You know a lot. So I knew about liberty.
Speaker 3:This is, but this was when the football stadium like there was no that you guys walked there. It was more like a glorified soccer field. Right, it was hardly a football field back in my day, um. So, but then you know, eventually, um, I went to biola and senior year, I'm like I want to go to seminary because I wanted to go back in the military and be a chaplain. That was the goal, and Liberty had an MDiv that was specifically for chaplains and I figured you know what I really like that place. I'm going to do it. So, after Biola studied political science and theology there, I went to Liberty, went to Lynchburg in fall of 2013 and really fell in love with Lynchburg, guarded a really great community, got really involved with my church and just really felt welcome there, only did a year in seminary. The Lord has blessed me with a wonderful learning disability, but it's okay, and so I was. Like you know, I don't think I'm going to advance much more in my education, but Liberty did hire me to be a national recruiter and so I spent the next three years traveling all around the country and talking with high school is about liberty. I will say where this is relevant to what we're saying.
Speaker 3:So, growing up, I was never a popular guy. I was picked on a lot all the way up through high school. Brains was cool, but I was never a popular guy. That was weird. I'm still weird, but whatever. When I got to liberty I don't really I still don't know really what happened, but I got. I just became very well.
Speaker 3:Now I was writing a blog and the blog got really popular and I just kept kind of finding myself in situations where um to be involved in a lot, of, a lot of people knew me and I did not know what to do with that. That wasn't very, very new for me. There was no segue, it just happened and I will admit I failed in many ways. I failed in many ways Not being as intentional with some people as I could have been, like ministerially People who reached out and needed help with something. I did what I could. But there's that. And then there's sin issues, nothing, moral failure or anything like that. But you start getting prideful and so I had to work with that, I had to navigate that and I did not perfect that by any means. But I also was very, very big.
Speaker 3:I bigoted the whole conversation about gender roles. My roles and my views have shifted since then. But, um, I was a bit confused. I was in the uh, egalitarian slash, um, I don't know camp and but what? But what? But that never made me. I was never. I never took the liberal side of that, I never took the liberal side of that and I never took the liberal side of that and I never took the. That never took away from the importance of masculinity. In fact, I several times in conversations with people, we had this club called Issues and we would meet and talk about issues and I would talk about the beauty that masculinity could have in that equal, you know that egalitarian sense and I do think it still can. I'm not an egalitarian, but for my pentecostal friends who are uh egalitarian but still conservative, uh, I've seen a lot of them still really matched to what it means to be masculine in that sense. So, anyways, there are a lot of really great conversations I was able to uh to uh have their liberty about this role.
Speaker 2:Alright. So when you got into politics, how'd you get into politics from liberty?
Speaker 3:My blog was getting a lot of attention and I did talk about political issues. I'm not certain I agree with everything I said back then. I have to go and look. I don't even know if the blog is still accessible, but I started talking about politics a lot and my last year as a recruiter so this was 2016, I just had this huge urge to move to DC. I don't know why I?
Speaker 3:was like I just want to go. I remember praying about it and I remember specifically saying Lord, I don't care if I'm flipping burgers, I just want to be in DC and combat abortion. That was like my main. Well, by the way, you can't flip burgers and make it in DC, it's too expensive. But I was looking at different jobs and I was Not even at Five Guys, not even at Five. Oh yeah, right, I'm an in and out loyalist, loyal in and out guy, but you know, five guys is cool, I guess.
Speaker 3:Um, well, after a lot of failed interviews and and things like that, um, a friend of mine she's a liberty alum, she worked for cbn news and she invited me to come on their show and talk about, um, it was, uh, immigration I think we talked about. It was like an opposing view thing, me and this other guy. It went really well and they had me on again and eventually that led to a job. And so CBN hired me Christian Broadcasting Network they hired me to work in their DC bureau and it was the perfect job. It paid fairly well, it was a good community of people and that is what launched my network in DC, because when you're the biggest Christian media outlet in the country, probably the world.
Speaker 3:All the conservative organizations in DC want you know, they want your coverage, they want you to come. So as a social media producer I was everywhere and I met all the people and you know all the you know. And then I went to Family Research Council as their digital media director and was able to take that network and apply it in an advocacy place you know, I'm not doing journalism at FRC, I'm doing advocacy type media Really really did a lot of fun work there. I had a wonderful team of creatives and we did a lot of really good work. And then I went independent and, uh, liberty picked me up as the editor-in-chief for the uh, the standing for freedom center. So did that for three and a half years. Um, so that's, that's all in there. But where, but where all those six years in dc relates to this? Uh, to the machismo thing we're talking about here is, um, actually am I going ahead or no, no, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good segue yeah this is.
Speaker 3:This is a huge, huge topic. That is just. My blood gets boiled all the time. We see this a lot in the reformed christian nationalist niche. Now, am I bashing reformed people? No, I'm kind of reformed. I I affirmed the fiveos, but I'm not a Calvinist, so I kind of have my. You know, I have a little reformed card. It's you know, they just have to be in.
Speaker 2:We're lowercase reformed.
Speaker 3:There you go, there you go, love it, that's a good one. So I'm definitely not harping on reformed guys, uh, and I'm not necessarily bashing on christian nationalist guys, although the percentage of christian that good well.
Speaker 2:So, uh, that we might be jumping ahead a little bit if we're just talking about that, that specific group, um, let's first, if you don't mind, let's back up a little bit. Yeah, um, so you know, with politics, you've observed, uh, this conversation about manhood, alpha male, beta male and all that stuff. Okay, so let's first. What we're doing with each guest is getting your opinion on what these terms mean. Um, sam and I did an episode where we we blew up the myth of alpha and beta um and talked about what it means to be a Christian man and how these categories are really just describing personality traits. But what do you think alpha male means or has maybe come to mean in the culture?
Speaker 3:Can I answer the first question about what think you sort of alluded to, what is biblical manhood and womanhood? Can I just say that real quick? Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, go ahead. So the way I see it is this the Great Commission was not secluded to men, it was not secluded to women. The Great Commission was for the church, right? So I think biblical manhood and womanhood in simple forms is both parties pursuing the Great Commission, using the gifts that they've been given. There are ways that men are going to be better at things than women. There are things that women are going to do better than men ministerially. So we're both doing the same thing. We're both advancing the gospel, we're both pursuing justice, we're both pursuing righteousness for ourselves, for our families, for our communities. Men are going to do a few different communities, um, men are going to do a few different things, women are going to do a few different things. So, but ultimately, we're doing the same thing.
Speaker 3:Now where this alpha male thing comes in, it's so annoying. The alpha male, in contrast to the biblical, um masculine man, I can, I can, I can describe the difference in one word, and that's humility. The alpha male comes in with an intent to be the show intent to be in control. Being a leader is not being in control. You have control, but that's not the goal, right? Being a leader is inspiring people to follow you because of your example. Being a leader is is showing a christian leader is showing righteousness, uh, is showing humility, is showing what it means to be christ, like alpha.
Speaker 3:These alpha guys come in and they love the title too. They wear that title. They work loud and proud, right, they do it because they want control. They do it to feed pride, to feed their pride. They won't say that they do it to feed their pride. Um, they won't say that they do it to feed their pride. They do it for a reputation and it's so, so, so bad. Some of the characteristics we're seeing with this alpha male stuff and these are coming from guys who talk about. You know we're protectors of women, well, okay, but I see the stuff that you post and it sounds pretty not pro-womanomany. Um, you know they. They will undermine women who are in public leadership. Um, just because they're in public leadership and I'm like sorry, I'm filibustering here, tim good, do you have any examples of that?
Speaker 2:oh, absolutely of the of the women who are doing good work, or the men who are well, just like, if you can I know I'm putting on spotlight can you think of an example of like, uh, like a, a female in leadership, where that happened to her?
Speaker 3:oh, um. Well, they don't always mention names. The only time they'll mention names is when it's a woman who's like a liberal, uh, or who has done something wrong. But they are very quick to also say that they don't think women should be doing leadership stuff at all. Matt Walsh, who I like. I don't think I've ever read a post by Matt Walsh where I was like no, it's either two thumbs up or like three thumbs down. Right, I'll find that someone else has done three thumbs down Terrible. He came out the other day saying this thing of like Western civilization falls as women become in charge of more things, something like that. And I wrote a response and I'm like my man, my conservative brother in Christ.
Speaker 3:In the last couple of years we have seen some amazing victories at the United States Supreme Court Masterpiece case up versus Colorado, dobbs versus Jackson, the overturn of Roe versus Wade, 303, creative versus Ellen it's the biggest free speech case that hopefully we'll ever have to see in our lifetime. Right, all of them were spearheaded and completed by women. The ceo is a woman, she's the one who who had the victory for the cake baker, for for laurie smith, like yeah and uh, attorney general mississippi. Attorney general lynn finch, uh, female spearheaded the dobbs uh case.
Speaker 3:Like there are so many really really good people and to me I'm thinking these alpha guys coming in saying that women are are the problem here. It's like I don't get it and they'll associate it with politics. Here's the thing If you look at Congress and the Senate, most of them are men and terrible things are happening. So how is it that women are the issue? I mean, if we're going to say that it's because of gender, well then logically it's. Men are worse because bad things are happening and there are more men there. Now, I don't think that that's it. That's identity politics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm not familiar with that article that Walsh wrote, but it sounds similar to something that Doug Wilson has said in times past, and I like Doug Wilson for a lot of things. But I think he has alluded to at times where and again I can't quote him on this, I'm just paraphrasing where he's alluded to this idea that a nation is under judgment when there's lots of women in leadership. So it's a sign of God's judgment, basically, if there's more and more women in leadership. I've seen even people say that we should repeal. Uh, which? Which amendment is it? The 18th amendment? The 19th amendment to vote? Yeah, it gives women the right to vote.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the 19th amendment, yeah, um, so I mean, they just yeah, there's lots of different, uh examples of that. So so, you've been in politics, you, you've seen this stuff rise up and I like the groups that you said a few minutes ago. There's this, the group that says masculinity is toxic. That's the radical left, the progressives. We could probably accredit the feminist movement for generating that kind of mindset. They accredit the feminist movement for generating that kind of mindset. So, yeah, deconstructing and eliminating the masculine, uh, personality from society, that's, that's evil, okay, uh. And then there's there's kind of ordinary guys uh, probably make up the majority of men in the country that are just like, oh, we're just going to be men. But then there's this segment that is almost overreacting to the toxic masculinity crowd and there being the quote unquote alphas are calling for all of us to be alphas.
Speaker 2:And I thought of something as you were writing there's a trend, on Twitter at least, where people will it's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's classic bullying. It feeds into my hypothesis that no one ever really leaves high school. We just, we just change forms, um. And there's a classic. There's this classic, uh, bullying, example of bullying, where people are making fun of each other's looks like. If you can't win an argument, you'll start making fun of someone's looks. And this happens more on the right now, where someone, a popular figure on the right, will start finding embarrassing pictures of someone their political opponent on the left, and instead of answering their arguments, they'll just make fun of their looks. And so there's a thing called physio, as a meme called physio-no-me is real, physio-no-me meaning like think physio, as a meme called physio know me is real physio, know me. Meaning like, uh, like think physio, meaning physical and then know me not comes from the greek word namas, or law, so the physical law, so as a person appears physically. That reveals something about their character too, and so essentially beautiful people have great character and are traditionally conservative, and then ugly people end up being liberals and progressives, so you can tell a lot about it.
Speaker 2:Or a guy with a smaller chin and a receding hairline or a skinny, whatever. He's going to be like a wimp. And then the guy who's muscular, got a chiseled jawline, a bronze, he's a man, he's chad, he's a man's man, you know and says, and that's supposed to reveal something about someone's character. And one of the points that we made in our show about the alpha and beta. Is that a true, a true biblical man has to do with courage and character. Those are the two things I mean. You mentioned humility, that's what plays into character. Courage and character define those are the two things I mean. You mentioned. Humility, that's what plays into character. Courage and character define manhood, not these other things. So, yeah, anyway, I'm going on.
Speaker 1:This is your interview, so I want to One thing that I did want to add, tim, if I can. There was this real. We're having this conversation about alphas and betas and all this stuff, and you think about the alphas and you know we talked about narcissism in one of our episodes and that percentage of people, the actual diagnosable narcissism personality disorder it's a very small percentage compared to all the US population. So I was thinking about this as we're talking how much of the population is actually alpha? You know they're the loudest voice out there. You know they'll put up their pose or put up their video. So we see all the attention, we see all these negative characteristics. But I'm really curious and you know I have to look it up at some point how many people actually display these characteristics? Because in real life it doesn't work. Those behaviors do not work or are conducive to any type of healthy relationships.
Speaker 1:And I'm remembering an interview with Jordan Peterson and he talks about that. This lady is grilling him or trying to grill him and saying you know all of these men, you know they're super successful and they're doing this to people and saying this about women and this about other men. And Peterson tells her. He says what percentage of men do you think, do that. Most men are not that hyper masculine. You know, successful type. You're talking about very small percentage and attributing those behaviors to all men. So this this lady was downplaying all men. He's saying that's the percentage that you're talking about.
Speaker 1:This alpha type is a very small percentage of men. Most men are not that. They're trying to find their way through life and figure that out. So I'm really curious, as we're having this conversation, I wonder what those numbers would be. And because I'm thankful that we're having this conversation, because we're exposing and maybe even presenting to other men that, hey, not everyone is that and you don't have to be that Just because those people are the loudest, making the most noise in the social media world, you don't have to be that or don't have to be attributed or connected to that type of personality. To John's point, you can be your own man, find your way and do the best that you can as you walk through life and try to solve these issues. But yeah, I'm just wondering your thoughts on that. Do you guys think there's any truth to that?
Speaker 3:I want to emphasize one point here real quick. Yeah, I mean I don't know all the numbers, but I will say that the church is small compared to the rest of America and the church is our focus as far as discipleship and whatnot. And what's really sad for me is seeing a lot of the guys on Twitter in the we can go there now.
Speaker 2:You can go there now.
Speaker 3:In the reformed Christian nationalist community again, not all of them, but I would argue most of them who are so loud and are so obnoxious about these things and and the goal here that they do is to say who can say the most incendiary thing, who can say the most conservative thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly what it is.
Speaker 3:Right and, and that in and of itself is extremely problematic. But here's where it gets beyond problematic and it becomes heartbreaking is when you have guys who are in college we're talking like late teens, early 20s who want they want, you know to be accepted, they want to be popular, they want these engagements and everything they want all these things where it becomes the whole thing about, uh, it becomes problematic and it becomes heartbreaking. One of the biggest, one of the absolute biggest problems that I'm seeing with this overly overtly alpha male characteristic specifically within the Reformed Christian nationalist community, is that these guys are having a terrible influence on the younger generation. So these guys, they get on the Twitters and they say the goal they don't say this overtly, but they basically say the goal is to say the most conservative thing, the most incendiary thing, the most you know, whatever you want to say, you know, shot, john, you're saying Tim, it's so, so, so bad, because not only are they saying things that are oftentimes completely unbiblical or do not reflect the fruits of the spirit, but then they start influencing the younger generations and we have a lot of these guys, not just at Liberty, where you guys work, but, like you know, other Christian schools. They're in their late teens, early 20s, and they want acceptance, they want to be part of the professional. You know the older men, you know blah, blah, blah, and so they follow them, and they follow them blindly, and they'll just be retweeting stuff, retweeting stuff without even thinking about it. Um, and, and it's it's. It's really heartbreaking to see how, uh, how naive these young men are, because these are the leaders tomorrow. And another thing is it's making people dumb, and here's what I mean by that. I mean dumb, and it's written, it's in its genuine meaning.
Speaker 3:Um, people aren't reading anymore, people aren't caring about the facts. They'll see a headline about a supreme court case and they'll be like oh whoa, there's huge analysis about it. I'm like it wasn't even a ruling on the merits. This was a technicality that has no precedent. Um, and that may sound very technical, but the point is words, words matter, truth matters. I mean, we're all conservative here. Are we the ones who used to say you know facts first? You know, look at the facts, look at the facts, look at the facts. And yet they're not. And if you do give a genuine answer, well then they're like oh, that's nuance, and nuance is bad. Nuance is like a new bad word.
Speaker 3:Nuance is beta and nuance is bad. Nuance is like a new bad word. Yeah, nuance is beta. I can't believe that. That's literally what these guys are saying. Like nuance is just sometimes the the most accurate way to pick something. Don't be afraid of it.
Speaker 2:Alpha well, if you, if you recognize even just the contrast when you said when you think for yourself, you become wise, that is nuance. Yeah, and sometimes it takes moral courage to have nuance. Sometimes you can be cowardly, you could hide behind nuance when there's a very clear moral crisis at stake. You know worms and snakes will hide behind nuance, but sometimes nuance is important. Yeah, and it's the courageous thing to be nuanced as opposed to being, like you said, dumb and simplistic.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:John, you mentioned about young men. I remember we talked about this story back when it happened. I was just telling Sam this on the break. Do you remember the March for Life? Every year? Those of us who are listening?
Speaker 2:Liberty sends hundreds, almost a thousand students every year to March for Life. And so we're up there and it's snowing, it's cold, man and students are on the road getting ready to march and there's, there's these young guys walking around. I don't know who they were, but they're walking around with a camera, microphone, like you know, tiktok, social media kind of stuff, um, and they're interviewing young people and they're asking one simple question, because this is a march for life. So they ask simple question who is the most pro-life candidate still in the race? And they were asking about the Republican primaries At this point. It was Trump. Desantis, nikki Haley and I think Vivek was still in at that point. So they were asking these young people hey, who's the most pro-life candidate? Young people, hey, who's the most pro-life candidate? And as I was observing this and I was just quiet, I was just kind of there I was watching these young people feel. You could see it on their face. They could feel the peer pressure to say Trump, because everyone wants to be on the Trump train.
Speaker 2:Trump was the apparent winner. He's going to be the clear winner of the primaries. Everyone wants to ingratiate themselves with the Trump camp. It's like bandwagon kind of jump on everyone, get on board, kind of stuff. You could see them wanting to say, or feeling the pressure to say, trump. But the critical ones, like the informed ones I could see it in their eyes they knew that wasn't the right answer. The right answer was DeSantis, objectively. So, objectively, desantis was more pro-life on policy and philosophy than Trump.
Speaker 2:But they were struggling to say the truth, what they thought, what they knew to be the truth. Now, what difference does it make? Is that going to shift the primaries? No, but what they knew to be the truth, now what difference does it make? Is that going to shift the primaries? No, but it has to do with moral character, personal moral character for young men and young women not to go along with the crowd. Even, okay, trump might do some great things. He did some great things when he was in office. But what is true? You have to answer the question truthfully and I've seen, I'm seeing so many young men um, give into the peer pressure. Uh, like, it's like in the military. It's just like in the military. They give into this group think mentality and go along with the crowd and, rather than doing what they know to be right and true, yeah, yeah well remember.
Speaker 1:They're also in that stage I guess this this applies to this um aspect of of psychology where they're in that stage where acceptance is what matters, relationships are what matters, right? 18, 19, 20 years old, so whatever I say he's going to get me accepted into this group and, um, you know, it's something every I think everyone who goes to that stage goes through. Just the hot topic right now is obviously the election and all these other things, this alpha beta mentality.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's wild yeah, 100, 100, and you know what's funny about it is, uh, the alpha males will kind of create this agenda of being the most provocative that's the word I was looking for earlier the most provocative we can be, and then they get all these guys to follow along and they'll say things like nuance is weak, you have to say the narrative and all this. I'm like all of these things, all of these things, ironically, are weak Because it shows that you've been defeated by pride, so you weren't strong enough to fight off pride. It shows that you are not willing to be independent. It shows you're not willing to put forth the effort, or not able to put forth the effort, to see the entire picture. It shows that you're not willing to say what might not be popular among your group. You know the?
Speaker 3:The trump thing. Yeah, just really quick on the trump thing. Okay, well, okay. So we this is where we have a lot of these alpha guys have really lost sight of intellectual integrity because in order to they, they basically say that you have to be pro trump in your tweets and everything. You can't criticize him or otherwise you're being disloyal and I'm like, okay, well, first of all, you should ever, ever have that type of loyalty to a president. Okay, that's that.
Speaker 2:Just shouldn't be a thing, yeah even still, it are we that the irony of the conservative movement? Oh my gosh, talking about loyalty, oh, I'll tell you.
Speaker 3:It's like are we that dumb that we're not able to or willing to say hey, what Trump said about abortion is absolutely abhorrent. I don't even want to call him. It's bad enough to say that he's a pro-life guy, but people say he's the most pro-life president ever. It's bad enough to say that, uh, he's a pro-life guy, but people say he's the most pro-life president ever. No, he's not. He's not. He appointed justices row return row. He would have done that no matter what was going on the states. He needed conservative judges to help him out in other areas. Um, and so there's all that. But it's like we can't look at the big picture because that's that's capitulating. It's like you know what we should be able to say, as you know what we should be able to say as brave men of God. We should be able to say that Trump is not a pro-life man.
Speaker 3:Trump is not a good man. Trump's probably not a Christian. Trump is not with conservatives on sexuality. He's not with us on a lot of social issues. He's still the best option, but that doesn't mean that we should be parading him. There is a fiercely, fiercely, fiercely enthusiastic dichotomy between pragmatism and cheerleading. It's embarrassing to see people get behind him. I'm going to vote for the guy, but well, I won't say here because I haven't published it yet. But I'm writing an article basically talking about well, we should not be happy about voting for him. I'm saying we should not be happy about voting for him. I'm I'm saying we should. I'm making the argument that christian should vote for him, but I'm making the argument that we should not be happy about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know um, getting back to the alpha and beta conversation, I think that the trump conversation is relevant to that because, um, I think, if we're honest, what we've seen is a shift, even in conservative circles. The things that we'll talk about and joke about in politics, the kind of people that will elevate and celebrate, yeah, so I think it's relevant. What I'm amazed at and I think you hit on this, john I'm amazed at how conformist the alpha movement is, how each of them, they talk the same, they they circle the wagons, they won't criticize each other. Um, they all try to mimic each other, like, like a bunch of betas. Yeah, uh, it's so compelling prophecies it's.
Speaker 1:You know we were talking about all the. I don't know if you knew this, john, but you know we found out I guess you know not too long ago. There's like seven different types of these, you know personalities, the seven types of men.
Speaker 2:Now, not just alpha and betas, there's lots of them, but yeah, of course alpha is always the top dog, so everyone wants to be alpha, but yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So with all those seven different personality types, it it's. You know, what do I want to be? What do other men want to be? And if they want to be an alpha, if they want to be a beta or an omega and all these other, a gamma, all these other ones that we found out, then they're going to start behaving in ways that conform to that definition, because that's what they want to do. So when you were talking about how alphas would just kind of mimic each other and do it, if that's what they want to be, they're going to start behaving in ways that that reflect that. So again, just going back to our original point of be your own man and obviously follow for us as christians, follow those fruits of the spirit that should be developed in us as we follow Christ more Amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, john, you mentioned the Alpha Beta conversation and just different things about manhood. Tell us a little bit about what it's like being a Christian single man in this environment. There's all kinds of different conflicting messages that a Christian single man would get in this kind of culture, both from non-Christian and Christian sources.
Speaker 2:I mean, sam and I did an episode on Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson several weeks ago and the kind of messages that men are receiving online about what you have to do to be a man. We did an episode on the red pill community, which are guys who are just checking out of the feminist culture. We haven't done something on maybe the perversions and craziness that I see in the Christian circles about what it means to be a man and what that says about singleness. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on this, the kind of messages you've seen and how you deal with this as a christian single living trying to live faithfully for the lord so I see a lot of these tweets and I see what these guys are writing in books and you know, and who's uh, who are these guys?
Speaker 2:but just be, you can be specific or not specific, just to be.
Speaker 3:Well, just be, be general the, the alpha guys in the church that we're talking about Okay, so we're talking about the Christian circles.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So, and if anyone's just tuning in, just so I am clear when we say alpha male, we're not talking about just masculinity, we're talking about that overly. You know, flaunting, very prideful, arrogant. You know haughty type of stuff that you know flaunting, very prideful, arrogant. You know haughty type of stuff that you know all the problems say not to be, but, but they missed that part.
Speaker 3:Um, we see that a lot and I can't tell you, man, how many times I have read tweets and I have, uh, seen stuff in books and I can't help but think I feel for these men's wives, because I cannot help but think that they are not treating them as christ would treat them regularly. Everyone's gonna mess up. I'd be like I just, I just see this. I'm like, if you feel that, if you're okay to publicly say these demeaning things about women, I would hate to be your wife. You know, and I see that and it's concerning to me and the sad thing is I've known some of these guys. I've known for a long time, I knew them sometimes before they were married or before they jumped on this train, and I'm like I feel even worse for their wives because, like, their wives didn't marry this. Their wives didn't marry this type of arrogance, this type of popularity, this type of you know uh, alpha domineering type, uh, character. They married a humble, you know christ loving man and and it's like, oh, this whole shift. And so that's one concern. Another concern I've seen is that this notion that being married and having kids is what you're supposed to do Now, I understand, be fruitful, multiply, and all this.
Speaker 3:But when it comes to like, and I've been mocked for it, for being single, they're like, oh, you know, what are you doing to, you know, fulfill, you know, your duty as a man, unless and I'm like, okay, well, in that case I guess I just go up to some random girl, you know, forget, you know falling in love, forget, you know all that. I'm just gonna get a girl because that's my duty. It's like I don't want, I, I'm not celibate you, you know I'm not doing this on purpose. You know I would like to be married, I would like to have a girlfriend. So it's not like I'm trying to, you know, dismiss that relationship, I would like to have it.
Speaker 3:And so they're insensitive and just jumping to say things like that. That could be hurtful if I cared what they had to say. But also it's like man, they're missing it, like if that's what they think this is about. You know their kids, I can't see them being raised well. I can't see their, their, their, um, their wives wanting to submit. Who wants to submit to that kind of arrogance? You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:We look at the verses that talk about husbands loving wives and wives submitting, and there's so much more uh written to the man about what it means to be humble and loving and sacrificial. Right, I don't see that with these guys. I don't and um, but of course they'll quote scripture when it, when it benefits them. So, anyways, those are some concerns that I have and you know, again, I don't want to. I never want to generalize. Okay, I do want to generalize, but I shouldn't generalize. Um, you know all these guys, um, I know some guys who are, you know, like us. You know they're, they're into manly things. You know guns and you know running and working out and being in the woods. You know, and, um, who are not that way.
Speaker 3:So by no means am I saying that the, the paul bunyan types are among us. Uh, are these, you know, arrogant, prideful guys? You know, um, but we do see it and it's manifest in their, their tweets, and and and the positions they hold, and their inability oh here's one, oh my gosh, I cannot stress this enough their inability, or their unwillingness, perhaps both, to apologize. Oh, you can't delete a tweet because that's capitulating, that's apologizing to the left, that's giving in, or it's having the fruit multipliers enough to say that I was wrong. It's, it's being strong enough, being brave enough, being courageous enough, being christ-like enough to say I was wrong.
Speaker 3:Okay, I may have accidentally just said some heresy there, because christ was never wrong, but you get what I'm saying, having that humility, having that, having that courage, because, especially, the bigger the Twitter following you get, the more people are going to see you say I was wrong, but you know what? If our goal is truth, then we should celebrate that, because we're saying, okay, you know what I was wrong, but now I know truth, now I know what the truth of it was. Or set a good example, celebrate that you're setting a good example by saying you know what? I should not have said that I was being too emotional, I was no restraint, no self-control, and I should not have said that. That's something that would be so great for some of these guys to do, because it sets a wonderful example.
Speaker 3:Who the heck are these guys to tell their children to apologize when they're wrong, when they're not willing to do it themselves? That, as we mentioned earlier, is the difference between a leader and these alpha goofballs Someone who is going to actually show the example and someone who's going to make up some twisted example and all that. But yeah, the unwillingness to right or wrong. It's really really, really, really bad.
Speaker 1:We were just talking, john yesterday, tim and I about why do people do these things? And, in regards to this aspect of admitting wrong is, well, what's going to be rewarded and what's going to be punished. So those are things that they're looking at. If I keep this post up, will to be rewarded and what's going to be punished. So those are things that they're looking at. If I keep this post up, will that be rewarded? Right? And if people are going to applause them for keeping that post up, then that's what they're going to do. If they were to get punished, then they would take it down, right.
Speaker 1:So this goes back to just how much social media has changed our behaviors and how we do daily life. Is that it's? It's reflected in how these, these leaders or these alphas, are portraying themselves. You know, there is something as a social media image, and that's that's what's happening there as well. So, um, so yeah, it's just interesting, as you brought that up, because it shows really how weak they are, because they're only going by what's rewarded and what's punished, and not what's right.
Speaker 3:I want to compliment that by saying something else that these guys will often say, the guys in the same community that we've been talking about. Several months ago, it became really, really popular to say Christ is King. Truth we've known for a while, but it became very popular to say and king, you know the truth. We've known for a while, but it became very popular to say and now they say antagonistically it's like okay, don't that. That's using the lord's name in vain, that is textbook using the lord's name in vain. When you say christ is king, not because you want to declare christ as king, but because you want to tick somebody off, it's like that's not good. But another thing this okay. So if you're going to declare Christ as king, that's cool, great, do it.
Speaker 3:But that means and when they elaborate this he's king over everything. He's king over our lives, he's king over politics, he's king over the institutions, he's king over all, and I agree with that. But that also means that he's king over your Twitter. That also means he's king over your heart, and so what? These guys, as you were saying, they leave the tweet up because for algorithm purposes or for reward. It's like if you have something up there and it is wrong and someone calls you out on it and you're like but it's being retweeted a lot and it's being liked a lot and it's getting really good. It's like Christ is not king over you right now. You are not actually seeing. Christ is king. You're tweeting christ is king, but he is not king over your life right now, or at least you are not treating him as if he is king over your life, because that would mean that you would be obedient to truth well, this, I mean I, like you, brought this up because the christ is.
Speaker 2:Those who may not be aware of this conversation, the, the phrase christ is King has emerged on social media, twitter in particular, as a slogan of almost a calling cry of Christian nationalism, and there's various forms of that. So we don't have to get into the definitions to that, but it's a calling cry of like, of um, of uh, basically saying we need to transform the country and make it into some some form of uh, christian nationalist state, and again, there's various forms of that. So I don't want, I don't, I don't want to be unfair to the, to that group. But yeah, you're right, like um, they use that, they use that slogan to kind of trigger people. Sometimes it's like, why would you, why would you use the lord's name like that um? But I think this, this plays into something that I've been thinking about a lot um, in terms of manliness and, in particular, the conversation around singleness, is that this, the guys who buy into the alpha paradigm on social media in the Christian circles let's just stay with Christian circles right now they buy into that.
Speaker 2:I think they actually are conflating earthly and heavenly kingdoms in one. So let me explain this. The Christ is King is an example of this. It's a conflation of political rule, earthly political rule, with spiritual rule, and I don't think those two things mix. Um. But when it comes to the definitions of manhood, how do you display that John you talked about? People have said to you what are you doing? What are you doing your part to? To do what like to, to reverse the culture, to be a conservative revolutionary against the woke culture or something? And? And the implication is you have to get married, you have to have children to be part of the revolution. If not, you're, you're perpetuating the um, uh, the, the pandemic, let's say of, of singleness and lack of children and all these other things. Or, if you're not a Christian, sexual promiscuity. But I think what's happening here is when they conflate earthly and heavenly rules, political rule, they fail to see the purpose of singleness in the kingdom of God. They fail to see it. They fail to see how God would use single people in the church, even older singles. I've said this many times to a lot of my friends is that you know, whenever there's always a segment of the population that God uses that sort of looks like the world, but God uses and he redeems them, and so we have a huge population in the West of older single people. But a segment of that are Christians and it may be God's purpose to show the rest of the culture it's possible to live as a Christ follower and be single. Because what hope could you give a single person, an older single person, if you say, well, you know, god's plan is for you to get married, young and have children, and now you're in your 40s. You know you're in your 50s. Sorry, tough luck for you. Like, what hope is that? What hope do you have for them? So these guys are very simple in their thinking and it shows.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've seen some bizarre biblical, unbiblical ideas being said on social media. Here's one. I'll give you an example. Sorry to catch my breath there for a minute. I saw you know this, maybe a year ago.
Speaker 2:I saw someone tweet out the church was not built by single, childless men.
Speaker 2:This was a pastor who said this, and now his intent was to target.
Speaker 2:I guess he had assumed all single guys in their 20s and 30s were just wasting time playing video games or something. So he just and of course he was part of this camp that we're talking about and he said the church was not built by childless, single men. And I simply responded to him. I kind of took I mean, I took a little personal offense to that, but I responded to him just with a list of figures from the early church, first three centuries, who were single and they were most of the church fathers and some of the apostles in the first century. I just tweeted that list to him and he deleted his tweet. It's just like when you conform to this spirit of I got to be an alpha man and I've got to beat my chest and I've got to do these things to show got to be an alpha man and I've got to beat my chest and I've got to do these things to show that I'm an alpha man, you actually end up saying things that are wrong, unbiblical things.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've seen a lot of these guys do that over and over and over again now, and so I think that's just a warning to anyone who's listening especially the men who are listening that to be a godly man, to be a biblical man, it's character and it's courage, moral courage, those two things. It doesn't matter if you have physical prowess, it doesn't matter if you have great looks or you're highly intelligent or you know all the solas and you can repeat all the tulip and whatever you know. It doesn't matter. Those things don't matter. What matters is your character and your moral courage to do the right thing and, when it comes to social media, to say the right thing in the right way and to admit when you're wrong.
Speaker 1:And I would add one thing oh sorry, joan, yeah, um, from one of the fruits of spirit that I think has been very evident and necessary for men today is the aspect of self control, like it's one of those fruits of spirit where, if a man can control himself both what they say online, what they say in their interpersonal relationships, when they want to say or do something else I mean that shows how much we're able to also allow for, you know, christ to continue to work in our lives. It's difficult because most men brought up today they're not taught that, they're not taught how to control their emotions. And you know the population that we have the benefit of being close to our 40s and having some life experience where we understand when we're talking about these nuances and who to listen to, who not to listen to. But this younger generation, you know I worry for my boys. I know one of the biggest blessings I think that God has given me is that I have a lot of influence over my sons right, that they are not going to look to anyone else for what a man should look like, that they're going to look at me and I need to reflect, you know, model Christ in my life and that I hope and pray that they're not influenced by these other voices that are going to impact them negatively.
Speaker 1:So if you're listening and you're you know under 30, you know early twenties, whatever the case is, you know the. What we're seeing is that you're the most prone to start to believe or take on these ideas as a way to identify with other men in your age group or because you'd maybe just haven't experienced enough to really be clear on who you are as a person. But as you get older, you start to see these things and your identity starts to get more and more shaped into Christlikeness. And we just want to kind of give you this heads up of here's how to kind of think through those messages that you're receiving from culture, from these leaders in the church, from culture from these leaders in the church, and how to filter out what is not going to help you become a godly man. And Tim and I did an episode on hermeneutics and Bible study and Tim gave some great information how to study Scripture. I think that's going to be a good way for you to learn how to sift out what's good messaging and what's unbiblical and what's biblical.
Speaker 2:All right. So, John, as we wrap up, any final thoughts.
Speaker 3:Oh, if I start, I won't stop. I'll just say this you know, for guys out there, you want to be masculine and you're seeing all these guys getting all this attention for being alpha, alpha, alpha. Just know this. If you have to say I'm alpha or any synonym thereof, you're probably not doing it right. If you're following a guy who's saying that, you're probably not something you need to follow. There are so many guys out there. I mean, really, if you're known it's almost like if you're known for being a man's man I'd be cautious about following them, because chances are they're doing it for the machismo, for the pride and like man. Some of the most humble, godly masculine people out there you'd never know, you'd never know and you shouldn't know. Well, you should see the masculinity in them, but you shouldn't know because they're talking about it. I could talk all day but I won't. This has been a really, really good conversation.
Speaker 1:It has yeah.
Speaker 3:I knew I would enjoy it, but I've enjoyed it more than I even anticipated. So I really appreciate the time. I really appreciate you guys asking me to come on and, yeah, I look forward to more discussions. To end, absolutely All guys asking me to come on and, yeah, look forward to more discussions. To add. Absolutely All right.
Speaker 2:Thanks for coming on the show John Wesley Reed, everyone.
Speaker 3:Bye.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see you next time.
