Psych and Theo Podcast
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 25 - Manhood Series, Part 2: Navigating Modern Masculinity with Humility and Faith w/ Dr. Darren Wu
What does it mean to be an alpha male in today’s world, and how can one balance such traits with humility and faith? Join us as we chat with Dr. Darren Wu, a first-generation Chinese immigrant whose life story is a testament to resilience, leadership, and unwavering faith. From his early years in Knoxville, Tennessee, to a spiritual journey in a small Chinese house church, Dr. Wu's path to Christianity is as inspiring as it is unique. This episode not only captures his profound spiritual awakening but also traces his impressive military career, deeply influenced by his grandfather’s legacy.
Discover how the United States Naval Academy reshaped Dr. Wu's life, teaching him not just about leadership but also about humility and the essence of teamwork. Listen as he recounts his transition from mechanical engineering to a role in the Civil Engineer Corps, including a challenging tour in Panama focused on counter-narcotics operations. Learn from Dr. Wu’s experiences about the importance of mentorship, adaptability, and the humbling lessons learned while serving alongside seasoned enlisted personnel.
As Dr. Wu shares his emotional transition from military to civilian life, he opens up about the challenges of guiding children through societal changes while rooting them in traditional Christian values. Hear personal anecdotes that illustrate what it means to teach character and courage in today's world, and understand his perspective on alpha males and leadership. This episode is a rich tapestry of faith, leadership, and family life, offering insights that are sure to resonate with listeners seeking wisdom and inspiration.
All right well, welcome back everyone to the Psych and Theo podcast. We are excited about doing our very first interview with a man who has been a good friend of ours, someone that we've known for a long time. I've worked with Dr Darren Wu on a number of projects and Tim knows him as well. Tim's going to give a bio, a background, of Dr Wu, but we want to welcome Dr Wu to the podcast and we're excited that you're here with us. Thank you Good to be a part of this, absolutely. We're really looking forward to it, talking about the topic of alphas and betas and all this modern culture, talk about what manhood should be like, and hopefully you guys enjoy this conversation. I will pass it off to my buddy, tim and Tim.
Speaker 2:All right, yeah, so it's my pleasure to introduce a good friend, good friend of mine. His name is Dr Darren Wu. He's been married for 20 years to his wife, tracy. They met at Liberty when they were resident directors and he has four kids with her Caleb, 13 years old, karis 11. Titus, eight years old, and then Daniel, who's five, and then Ezekiel Actually it's five, I said four, that's actually five kids. Ezekiel is two years old. They raise young kids, homeschooling and swimming. Prior to coming to Liberty University, darren served as a commissioned officer for seven years in the United States Navy, with tour duties both in Charleston, south Carolina, the Republic of Panama, norfolk, virginia and Washington DC. Darren has served Dr Wu, excuse me, has served at Liberty since the fall of 2001 in various roles and he's currently the online chair and associate professor in the School of Engineering. He holds a. Is it BSME? Is it a Bachelor of Science in Military?
Speaker 3:Education no Mechanical Engineering.
Speaker 2:Mechanical Engineering, thank you From the United States Naval Academy. And then he also holds a Master of Arts in Religion from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and an EDD from Liberty University as well. So, dr Darren Wu, illustrious, credentialed career, welcome to the show, thank you and Darren.
Speaker 2:I've had many, many years of experience with Dr Wu, both as a grad assistant. I was working in the same office that you were in, the Christian service office at Liberty, but before that I was a student, when you were the dean of students, and you were feared, very feared.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can get into that later. My detoxing years as I refer to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right Well let's get into it then. So let's tell the audience a little bit about your upbringing and then how you became a follower of Christ, and then we'll kind of flow from that into your military career and other things.
Speaker 3:Sure, so I am, I guess, referred to as kind of Generation 1.5. My parents immigrated over here to the United States from Taiwan, so ethnically I am Chinese but I guess you know, politically it is not a communist nation. So ethnically Chinese, politically, from Taiwan. They immigrated over here when I was only eight months old. So even though I'm first generation Chinese, I'm not really first generation as most of my adult life was lived out here in the United States of. The rougher years of my life were probably the early years of my life. So when I immigrated over here the first language I learned and the first language I was influenced by was Mandarin Chinese. That's all my parents spoke in the home and so really, and so this is the early 70s into. Probably you know late 70s, early 80s. Things like ESL didn't exist. You know special support for students didn't exist. I was raised in Knoxville, tennessee, so it's deep south in the 70s and, as you can imagine, you know, a Chinese kid not knowing English, showing up in the early 70s in the south was probably not a very popular kid. I don't have a lot of memories back then and it's probably because of all the traumatic experiences. Back then is like showing up in a public school system, not knowing any English, and so that's kind of early upbringing, you know, in terms of coming to know Jesus as Lord and Savior we attended. My parents were also saved here in the United States. They weren't Christians when they got here, but a small house church, a small Chinese house church, reached out to them, invited them to start attending, and then they became believers through that. And so I kind of grew up in a small Chinese house church in Knoxville, tennessee. But typical of that time I think it was an American church, a Baptist church, that adopted this small house church and allowed us to use their facility, their church. And so then my brother and I got involved in kind of the American youth group system church through this American Baptist church. So I got saved at a vacation Bible school in the south of EBS and this was back in the days of bus ministries where the church would go out and, you know, collect kids via buses, bring them in, and I remember the flanagraph presentation of the gospel and things like that. And so I gave my life to Christ at an early age through VBS. And then, you know, since that point it's been a journey ups and downs and so been a Christian now probably decades now, been a Christian now probably decades now. So that's a brief intro as far as you know how I came to know the Lord, my early upbringing and kind of experiences related to that.
Speaker 3:My interest in the military. You know I had an early interest in the military, for whatever reason. I was one of these strange kids that you know. Freshman year in high school I kind of knew I wanted to go in the military, and really no background in it. My parents didn't serve my grandparents, except for one grandfather who served in the. He served against the communists during Mao Zedong's communist takeover of China. He served on the nationalist side kind of fighting against the communists, and he was an engineer for the army back then. And so he's the only one that I'm aware of in my background that had any kind of military service related.
Speaker 3:But for whatever reason I was drawn to it, wanted to do it, and so freshman year in high school kind of set my sights on it and knew, you know, was really interested in one of the academies, whether it was West Point Air Force Academy or the Naval Academy academies, whether it was West Point Air Force Academy or the Naval Academy. So then everything I did was kind of focused around that. I made sure I had good grades, I made sure I was involved in sports teams, made sure that I got leadership opportunities when I could with those sports teams and just kind of was trying to stack the odds as much as possible so that I could, you know, earn a spot into one of the academies. And so that's kind of my journey. And you know, I did get in and then graduated from Annapolis in 1994 and then was commissioned and served seven years in the United States Navy, resigned that, came here to Liberty and now I've been here at Liberty over two decades, came here to Liberty, and now I've been here at Liberty over two decades.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that intro, and so tell us a little bit about what your time in the military was like. Seven years in the Navy Did that include Annapolis, or is that seven years commissioned officer afterward?
Speaker 3:No, that was seven years after Annapolis. So Annapolis is four years and then seven years after it. So, yeah, you know, life in the military is challenging. I enjoyed it, I would say, and now, as I've mentioned, I'm reaching back to two decades at least two decades in trying to remember what life was like, you know, in the military at that time. I would say so I spent my first two years after Annapolis trying to adjust to kind of real life in the military, to kind of real life in the military.
Speaker 3:And what I mean by that is, you know, when you enter Annapolis, I think most of us enter without military background. No prior enlisted things, very few prior enlisted. It's mostly high school guys and girls straight out of high school that want to go into the military. So, you know, kind of a civilian to military transition. And then you enter Annapolis and it's true what you hear about it and I always say you know, it's not a great place to be but a great place to be from. It's not a great place to be but a great place to be from, and so it's a pretty intense four years there of really breaking someone down and remolding them into what the military needs and specifically the academies are designed for combat officers. For combat officers Out of Annapolis, west Point and Air Force Academy, you have to have a clean medical bill of health to get in. If something happens while you're there and you can't commission in a warfighting community, then you're allowed to do like chaplain corps or medical services, things like that. But for the most part you're not allowed to select something like that upon graduation. The mission of the academies is to prepare war fighters right and so so they break you down, they remold you, you learn a whole lot of things and you learn the military culture and then you commission and here's where it kind of transitions into.
Speaker 3:I feel like my first two years out of the military I spent trying to, frankly and transparently, not be so arrogant and prideful. It's one thing. To get into that academies is really difficult. I think you know I think the numbers are still around maybe 15,000 students want to go every year for 1000 spots, so it's highly selective. And then once you get in it's they make it pretty difficult to certainly that first summer and that first year, uh, to make it through. They, they want to weed out who you know can't, can't make it through and isn't a good fit for the military, etc. And then you survive four years of it and then so because of that, you come out kind of, you know, with a chip on your shoulder, feeling like like you're, you know, feeling like you're a notch above everyone else around you.
Speaker 3:And then you hit the service and you have enlisted folks that work for you, right, and you have senior enlisted folks, senior chiefs, master chiefs of the navies, guys that have been serving in the real military for 20 plus years. And here comes this new junior officer with two days under his belt and he knows it all because he's from annapolis, right, and so that doesn't go well in the fleet when you have senior chiefs and master chiefs and 20 years of life experience and really leading sailors. And then you have a college kid that you know, sure he's from annapolis, but you know he's a college. And so my first year there was some hard lessons to learn in, in, like you know, in in, in learning humility, right, and learning to work with the folks around you that have been in much longer than you have, uh and so so that's kind of my first two years, and, and then my next tour in the end was I was transitioning because my degree was mechanical engineering and, as I said, in the military and out of the academies, engineers physical or medical something that happened that prevented you from commissioning in a warfighting community. But I kind of wanted to serve in the Civil Engineer Corps. My background was mechanical engineering and so after I did my time in the line community on a ship it was a mine hunter I put in a transfer package and got accepted into the Civil Engineer Corps and then I transitioned into the CEC and that's where I spent the last four years of my Navy career. I'm a community as a surface community.
Speaker 3:They sent me down to Panama because they had a billet there that they couldn't fill with their officers and they knew I was leaving them and going into the Civil Engineer Corps. So then they sent me down to Panama and I wasn't real happy about that. But, as you can imagine, the military isn't one to be like OK, you know great, we'll change your job. It doesn't really work that way in the military. You know, in the military you get to pick, you know, three jobs that you would like to do next and then they usually send you on a fourth or fifth one that wasn't even on your list. That's how recruiting and detailing kind of works in the military. So I ended up in Panama but it ended up being one of my best tours. I ended up down there in a joint tour serving under an Air Force colonel but serving with the Army Navy Air Force Customs DEA. I was working a counter-narcotics job down there.
Speaker 2:And what years was this so?
Speaker 3:that probably would have been late 90s, so probably like and that was post noriega. So in panama we had the us had just deposed of noriega and so it was still kind of like a hot zone down there. There were parts of the city that you definitely stayed out of unless you went with, uh, you know, a larger number of military into that section of town, and so, yeah, that was a time period of that tour, but I thoroughly enjoyed that tour. I was a JO at the time. A lot of senior, more senior officers took me under their wing and kind of mentored me and helped guide me in my job, and we were very understaffed down there, but a mission that was very worthwhile.
Speaker 3:Basically, us Sync South is responsible for all the drug interdiction that comes from South America through the Caribbean and, as you can imagine, that's a lot of action because you've got a lot of countries down there that are the source countries for all the illegal drugs that are coming into the US and USC South is in charge of fighting that battle, and so that's what I did for about a year and a half down there. Everyone was united around the mission, you know Christians, non-christians, and so that was a very enjoyable, challenging tour. And then the last four years after I transferred over to the Civil Engineer Corps. I then started doing, you know, engineering, public works, construction management, that kind of professional job while in the Navy. So that's a real short synopsis of my military background.
Speaker 2:All right, thanks for sharing that. So, before we get to the civilian life, the detox, the deprogram, as you call it, what would be you know we're talking about manhood in this episode. Be, you know we're talking about manhood in this episode. What would be some values or disciplines that you learned while you were in the military that stuck with you today? Just about manhood, the concept of what it means to be a man living in this world.
Speaker 3:Sure, so I'd probably start with some, you know good ones and then there's certainly some bad ones that, uh, you know fortunately I didn't learn, but you're exposed to uh inside of the military Um, but good ones are um, discipline, uh, you know, uh, a real strong sense of discipline, um, commitment, uh, work ethic, work ethic, camaraderie, Like I say a lot and I still say a lot of times now you know that concept and idea of teamwork and camaraderie was something I learned from the military that you know I think is appropriate for talking about manhood, because you know it takes a village to raise kids.
Speaker 3:I now have five kids now and married, and I don't go it alone and I can't go it alone. So the ability to work, you know, as a team with others, other parents, other like-minded parents. You know Tracy and I have been involved in Thomas Road for over that same amount of time that we've been married. We settled on Thomas Road under Doc Senior when we were dating and we've been at Thomas Road all since that time and you know we do life and share life with a small group there of parents, and so that's another thing that I think I learned out of the military the need to be assertive when necessary, when required. So never quitting, never quitting, never quitting, no matter how you feel or what you're going through at that particular time.
Speaker 1:The military is very strong on getting the mission done, regardless of what you may be going through or what's going on in your life. The mission comes first. Kind kind of deal. Um so, um, so yeah, off the top of my head for you, dr, sure the those, so those things that you were learning throughout the military, that you were learning about manhood, how much of those things were came more natural to you and how many of those things did you have to like learn from you know whoever was that that you were learning those things from? I mean, like how much of it was your personality? Do you feel that made it easier to adapt to that and how much of it was? You know I was trained in this way of thinking. I had to learn it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, I don't know how to put a percentage on that. I think it's a split, like some things. As far as the teamwork goes, that is definitely drilled into you and you learn that you can't graduate from Annapolis without without understanding that you know it's the, it's the kids that show up there that think that you know that you can go it alone, the, you know the, the number one person, that top dog that always likes to show off as top dog. They're usually the ones that get beat down the most and cause the most problems for the rest of the unit, the rest of the platoon, and then. So then you quickly learn that, hey, I don't necessarily want to be top dog, I kind of want to be in the middle. That is the weak link.
Speaker 1:but I don't necessarily want to be that top guy that you know thinks.
Speaker 3:you know I'm better than everyone else around me. So lots of stories about that out of Annapolis. So things like teamwork definitely pounded into you, you know from the get-go in the military, into you. You know from the get-go in the military, and so for me that's one area that probably was more trained in me than more inherent in my own nature to you know, and I see that in my kids right. Like I can't get my kids to get along for one hour together, and their siblings right, so that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny, you should mention that. Not wanting to stand out, that's the same same as principal in the army as well. When I went through basic training, it's like the the guys that wanted to stand out, they like wanted to be in charge of everyone. They got beat down the quickest by the drill sergeants. Yeah, so you didn't want to be first and you didn't want to be in charge of everyone. They got beat down the quickest by the drill sergeants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you didn't want to be first and you didn't want to be last, you just want to stay right in the middle, and that's I was like that was my goal the whole time when I was going through my trainings stay in the middle and blend in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, cool. Yeah, that's a good question, sam. So you know, as we transition now from military to civilian life you know, darren, you mentioned this as your period of deprogramming AIT school and then was six years here in Virginia what I noticed, what I noticed about the military, was that there there is this culture of sort of looking down on civilian life, yes, and and so. But then what I noticed is that guys, when they would come out of the military and they would get back into civilian life, it was sort of hard for them to transition back. I think reservists don't have as hard of a time with that because we have to live double lives. We get made fun of as the weekend warriors. I get it.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, but it's not as hard transitioning back into normal civilian life as it would be active duty. So tell us about your time. When you left the military, did you come straight to Liberty University? Was that like your first job outside of the military?
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, it was, you know, and I resigned my commission because I felt like the Lord was leading me into ministry. I'd gotten involved in serving in a youth group in Washington DC and with some LU alum that were embedded in the pastoral staff there, and so I fell in love with you know, the work of the ministry, the Lord, and felt like God was leading me to resign my commission and come um. So that's how I. So it was my first, you know, uh, non-military exposure, uh, and you know what I call my detox, deprogramming years, uh, and so my last day of active duty was actually, uh, september 7th, so a couple days before 9-11. And so that had a lot of mixed emotions because, you know, I was still in my mindset. You know very much military and it was a hard decision.
Speaker 3:It wasn't an easy decision because, you know, at that time I had an admiral in the CC, and the CC is not like the rest of the Navy, we're a very small community, uh, and there are like maybe five flag officers so five admirals at a total in this, and one of them had already been watching out for my career in washington dc and had my next duty station, uh, one of the battalions. I was supposed to go down and be a company officer, uh, to lead one of the battalions, the NMCB's Naval Mobile Construction Battalion, and so he had already started watching out for my career to make sure I would have the right jobs and keep promoting in the military. Decision to give up, you know, my career in the military and to come here to Liberty. And then 9-11 happened, and so then I had these mixed emotions of like, am I doing the right thing, or should I stay, or should I have stayed in the military, etc. And so that was the time period that I got here to Liberty.
Speaker 3:In terms of detoxing Tim, you're absolutely right. You think of yourself as different than a civilian and really transparently kind of like that same transition from Annapolis to the regular service, the transition from the military to the civilian was kind of the same way. The civilian way of doing things is crazy. Why do you have two, three bosses? That doesn't make sense. You're supposed to have a single chain of command.
Speaker 3:Everyone walks slow, you're supposed to have a single chain of command.
Speaker 3:And then you know my years here at Liberty, and this was back in the day when Liberty still had, like you know, guys had to have short hairs, had to be, you know, your hair had to be off your ear, I think, when I first got here, shirts had to be tucked in. You couldn't wear jeans, things, rules like that, right when. When I got here to Liberty, but you know, from a mindset of the military, I was like these aren't rules. Like are you kidding me? Like, right, like in the military mindset there we have rules, we have rules, we have regulations, we have tons of rules and regulations. So this Liberty Way thing, like you know, like really those aren't really rules kind of deal, and so it took some, like it took some adjusting to well, you know, to a college student at a Christian university, those are strict rules. They, you know, they are kind of hard for them versus someone you know who has seven years, came out of Annapolis active duty and you know it's like all right, these really aren't rules.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's sort of meeting it, meeting of the extremes where you come from. You're coming from military life, where there's all kinds of rules and regulations around the base and how you carry yourself as you walk around. If you're living on base your barracks or housing units and everything there's rules for everything in the military. Then you have guys that are coming into college who, if they've lived their whole life as a civilian and maybe they just don't have any discipline whatsoever, there's been no rules around their life other than get up and get yourself to high school and then find your way back home. Their life is full of maybe video games or hanging out with friends, maybe they don't have a curfew, and so then they come to Liberty and there's like there's a dress code, there's a curfew, that's like I don't know what it is now midnight or something. But yeah, all these kind of basic rules that help the university, keep everyone safe, so like the students don't actually hurt themselves, um, and just help, you know, keep the university campus kind of clean and organized, and yet some guys really struggle with that. So you're meeting, meeting in the middle.
Speaker 2:I you know personally I came from I I hadn't been in the military at that point. But I had to grow up pretty quick and so I had to, I was, was working, I was, you know, working as a teenager, full time, you know, to kind of help pay the bills at my own house, you know. And so I had to have my own structure and rules in place. And so when I came to Liberty and I quickly became an RA on the halls, you know, these, the sets of rules that we had were like nothing, you know, compared to what I had, to the discipline I had to use in my own personal life. And so I kind of not to your extent, I'm not trying to, but I struggled as well like understanding, like why can't you get up and go to your class? Why are you sleeping? It's time for convocation, get up.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what changes?
Speaker 1:did you guys make to adjust?
Speaker 3:Say that again.
Speaker 1:I said so what changes did you guys need to make to adjust, to like understand that? You know they didn't have the same background as you guys did, but you still needed to apply the rules for them to grow into them, as you know, as adults?
Speaker 2:That's a great question for Dr Wu yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you know, I think for me I would say, time. It took me a while. It just it took time to settle back into, you know, the new normal right Like life after the military. Yeah, there are rules here, but to kind of tone back some, you know, and so for me I think it just it took time.
Speaker 3:And obviously you know I was already in a new culture because you know, around here at Liberty there are some military and some folks with, like some veterans that are around, but you're no longer, you know, you're no longer at a naval station, you're no longer attached to a ship. You're no longer attached to a ship, you're no longer surrounded by that military culture. Right Now you're in a civilian culture, you're on a Christian college campus and you're in that new environment where you're no longer around that military culture. And so it just took time to, you know, kind of acclimate and adjust. And even nowadays, since I've been here at Liberty and Lynchburg so long, I'll bump into folks and it'll be a long time, like I think last summer, the summer before, someone at the swimming pool was like hey, dean Wu. And when I hear that title I'm always like uh-oh, which direction is this?
Speaker 1:conversation going to go right Like it's.
Speaker 3:Either you were part of leadership remember me as a dean and you know, really had no bad encounters with me, and so things are great or you were on the other end of the spectrum and you did have an encounter with me and things weren't so great during that time period, and so yeah, so for me I would say, just time in the new culture.
Speaker 2:Is it? I like how you put it as encounters, encounters with Dr Willick. He's Bigfoot, all right, okay, so yeah, tell us then like how your, your understanding of manhood began to shift. Then, of course, I think you got married shortly after you got out of the Navy, if I'm correct.
Speaker 3:We met here Tracy and I did. Yes, yeah, so then you know, tell us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're an RD and for those who don't know what that is resident director, and for those who don't know what that is resident director, it's a staff member, full-time staff member, who oversees several residence halls on campus. So you're over a set of resident assistants and then lots of hundreds of students you know that are living on the dorms. So tell us how your view of biblical manhood began to shift after marriage and then, as you began to have children. Tell us about that.
Speaker 3:Sure. So yeah, I guess and this probably will lead a little bit more into discussions a little later about, you know, alpha and alpha male, etc. Uh and um, and having kids, uh, the idea of manhood was would be something more of like, um, just I I hate to almost say this word but uh, more of a domineering one, right, where you know it's your way or the highway you're in charge, that kind of concept of you're the leader, you're supposed to be the leader of the home and what that actually means, I think drastically changed for me after getting married and having kids, For example. I'll kind of share a story that Tracy and I share a lot of times with friends is like since we were RDs together. That's how you know I had actually met her before she was an RD.
Speaker 3:She was one of Coach Tolsma's TAs back in the early days and had run for the track and cross-country team and so her circle of friends was the athletic world here at Liberty. My circle of friends was the prayer leaders, spiritual life directors, ras, deans, so different circle of friends. But she eventually was hired as an RD too and then we started having some meetings together, staff meetings and stuff. As RDs, you know get together weekly and so Tracy and I share about how you know. One of the early RD meetings you know was when she observed me in an RD meeting and then later on either explicitly told friends or didn't explicitly tell friends till later, but made a comment to herself or others about man.
Speaker 3:I could never date someone like that, you know, because I was just very, you know, very opinionated, very vocal about what I believed in, not afraid to say you know what I felt, things like that. And it just didn't resonate well with Tracy when, you know, in that first encounter as an RD. So that idea of manhood needing to be someone that's loud and boisterous and bold, maybe like an Apostle Peter kind of personality that you see in the Bible, right, an upfront, vocal kind of leader, after being married to Tracy for 20 years now and having kids, yeah there, you know there are times when you know, when the decision does come down to me and she has a different opinion on something and she has to submit to that and stuff. But for the most part, you know we talk over decisions. I want to know what she's thinking, I want to know how she feels about part. You know we talk over decisions. I want to know what she's thinking, I want to know how she feels about it.
Speaker 3:You know, and it's less of that like upfront, you know that's contrary to the military right. The military culture is that officer in charge is officer in charge. They bark out orders, the people follow and you get in line in charge. They bark out orders, the people follow and you get in line and whereas, you know, in a family unit there's a lot of conversations, there's a lot of communication that needs to happen and then it's more of a joint decision. You know, certainly in parenting there's lots of times that Tracy and I may disagree about you know, something in our kids in the future or what to do, but we try to, you know, talk it through, work it through and then say, ok, this, you know, this is the decision we're going with. You know, at this point, that's good, thank you.
Speaker 2:So what kind of life lessons or values then are you trying to teach your boys and your daughter to instill in them?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I chuckle because I have one daughter, which I'm thankful for, because I think that means I only have to pay for one wedding, whereas I have four boys. So I think I'm financially better off that way. So I have four boys, so I think I'm financially better off that way. So I have four boys, one girl. And so I think for my boys it boils down to, probably off the top of my head, two main things for me I want them to have character and I want them to have courage.
Speaker 3:And you know, character there's a lot of character qualities that come, you know, under that broad umbrella of having character. You know, for me as a Christian, you know I believe that that first comes from, you know, relationship with Jesus. So I want my kids to, when they get to the point that they're able to understand the gospel message both in their head and their heart, to come and start that relationship with Jesus. Okay, so three of my kids are saved. The fourth one, not sure. Yet you know he remembers when he prays the prayer. He can tell you all the Sunday school answers to things, but I don't see a lot of translation in his life yet on that. And so first, you know, I would love if, at the end of life, all five of my kids have a real vibrant living relationship with Jesus and then from that is where their character can develop and they can be men and women of strong character.
Speaker 3:And then you know, like I mentioned the second thing in terms of courage, I'm always talking to my kids, especially my boys, about courage and I always emphasize to them and some of my boys are more so than others. I can think of one that's naturally more fearful than my other boys, but I always talk to them about and I'm transparent with them is you know they know that daddy's ex-military. They see all the paraphernalia in the house. You know my annapolis sword, my. You know the, the um. You know second amendment fan. They know you know we've got guns. They know not to touch it. They know you know my oldest knows how to handle it. Um and but the in terms of like things. Where that ties into courage is, I always tell them, you know, like courage isn't the absence of fear, like everyone feels fear and there are lots of instances in my life where I have felt fear but you can't let that fear paralyze you. You have to be able to act in spite of that fear. You have to be able to do the right thing or what you feel like is the right thing, and engage it in spite of that fear that you're feeling at that moment.
Speaker 3:And I think sports is an excellent arena for my kids to learn that Three of my kids are now involved and now the fourth are involved in swimming. We're a swimming family. You know I could tell you how we got involved. Neither Tracy or I have swim in our background. She's a runner, I was a lifter and a gymnast, but we grew up around the water, like taking kids to the swimming pool, to the beach, and then my oldest showed some talent in there. So then we started him in summer swim and then he became part of the year-round swim team and then did pretty good and is doing good and so on and so forth. The younger siblings have followed in his footsteps and so we're a swim family. But they learn a lot of. They get to apply that you know, like even my, the son that I mentioned is a little bit more fearful than the others.
Speaker 3:He's just now starting swim and so for his first swim meet in the summer, he literally we arrived at the pool it was time to do warm-ups, and he's standing behind the block crying, and I'm like, oh man, this is not sitting. Well, like you know, to me who's? You know, a veteran, 11 years of service. You don't sit behind the block and cry Like none of my other kids are crying there. So I let mom kind of step in first, do what she needs to, uh, but he, you know he eventually jumped in the water and started swimming and then, uh, you know, when it was time for his first actual race after warm-ups, his two brothers older brothers, who are swimmers got behind and it was pre-staged.
Speaker 3:We kind of knew if anyone was going to back out, it was going to be this son of mine, and so I wanted to make sure my other two boys were right behind him to kind of encourage him to go. And he did, with some help of my 13-year-old. You know, when the starter sounded off, daniel was still standing on the block, but my 13-year-old just kind of pushed him on the shoulder into the water and that was a little nudge he needed. Got in the water, then he started swimming and went. But then after the meet, he couldn't stop talking about swimming and how excited he was.
Speaker 3:And so then it was a you know it was an object lesson. It was a lesson to debrief with him and and and talk to Daniel and be like, look, daniel, like you almost let fear stop you for trying something new. And now look, you know, look, how excited you are about it. And if you had given into that feeling of fear and not attempted it, you know you wouldn't be here like you. You know you wouldn't have accomplished what you did and you wouldn't be like, involved and excited about it like you are now. And I said you know that's life, you know all of life. You're going to have opportunities where you're faced with fear and you have to decide that no courage is acting in spite of that fear and not missing out on things or, you know, by not giving in to fear. So so those I think those are two of the biggest things that I want my boys and my daughter to learn is character and courage.
Speaker 2:All right, that's a good story, good life lesson. All right, so let's get into this conversation then, about alpha males, beta males and everything in between. So you know, when we were leading up to this episode, we were talking to you about the idea and if you'd be interested in coming on, and I think in that conversation you said that you would describe yourself as an alpha male. So we want to know, like, what would you mean by that and what do you think it means to be an alpha male?
Speaker 3:like what, what would you mean by that? And what do you think it means to be an alpha male? Sure, yeah, um, because I think when we had that uh discussion, you know we were talking about kind of, from your perspective, debunking the myth of, uh yeah, alpha male, beta male, and I had honestly not even heard the beta male term. We're now you aware that there's six terms out there associated with this.
Speaker 3:It's evolving fast, yeah, and so, you know, for me it's really important then to define, you know, what are we talking about when we use that term alpha male, right? So when I use that term alpha male and have referred to myself as an alpha and it's certainly not all the time I don't walk around, you know, referencing alpha male, you know it's probably a handful of times in 20 years that I've, you know, referred to myself as an alpha kind of deal. And I think that term comes from at least my, you know, because, as mentioned, you know, my background's engineering. It's not psychology or sociology or zoology, but I think that term comes from pack animals dogs, wolves, and there's always an alpha in the pack, and so that kind of aligns with the military chain of command, right? Always one, you know, one leader, one upfront leader, and so you can associate a lot of traits, I think, with alpha. But you know, when I use that term, I'm referring to, you know, probably from a leader perspective, right, and so it's more from a paradigm of leadership and not a relationship, and so I think of someone that's independent, that's probably high performing, someone that's assertive, and there's some bad traits that I would transparently say I probably associate with an alpha male.
Speaker 3:Like I mentioned in tracing in an iStory, alpha males are probably opinionated. We probably say what we think when we want to say it and practice very little self-control. We can probably be aggressive, right Assertiveness can become aggressiveness really quickly and aggressiveness is not appropriate in every environment. So you can probably see those traits, even as a swim dad, right In me. Like you know, when I'm at swim meets, my kids know I'm at swim meets, I have no problem uh, yelling at them and screaming at them from the stands and and, uh and rooting for them and, um and so, um, so a surgeoness, um, uh, some bad traits of an alpha male.
Speaker 3:Probably kind of, we can be dominating, domineering. We can probably be impatient. We have high expectations of ourselves as well as others. You know, and I see that in my you know, in my expectations of you know. I said my kids are involved in swim. My oldest is 13. My daughter's involved. She's 11, turning 12.
Speaker 3:And my son, titus, he's involved. He's at the top of his age bracket, at eight years old. And now Daniel, my five year old's involved. Well, titus is actually really talented and gifted in swim and so I have to catch myself Like with him. I have such high expectations of him. Like you know, he goes into a race. I expect you to win every single race, like against every opponent that you're against and that can be dangerous. I think he's so young that we need him to stay interested in the sport, not to feel bad when he loses a race, not to get down on himself, not to be unmotivated disinterested, because he really does have a lot of talent in it and so trying not to be too demanding. But I think alpha males a trait is we tend to be demanding, we tend to be domineering, we're that kind of upfront, take charge kind of person and don't tend to like to. We're not very passive, we don't really let things roll off our back that much. We kind of want to critique everything and fix everything and be efficient at everything.
Speaker 2:All right, there's like gamma and sigma and omega. It's like who's coming up with these? But you know, because there's all kinds of men and women in leadership roles who have different styles, and I think one of the myths in our culture is that everyone, I think there's this prioritization. I think in men's minds they say, oh, I want to be an alpha, as though alpha is the. You know if it is a standard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it's the top thing rather than it's a style of leadership, and a lot of it seems to be connected to personality traits. Some men refer to it as in our culture, you know. Okay, so tell us like is there anyone in your life it could be men or women. I guess you know anyone in your life that you would describe in this alpha-style leadership that you look up to? Sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there is an individual here at Liberty that you know I would voluntarily work for again and he happens to also be ex-military and, you know, rose up to the ranks, and so I would refer to him.
Speaker 3:You know I see him as another kind of alpha male, but the interesting thing about it, and why I say I would work for him in a heartbeat again, is, um, because he's also very humble.
Speaker 3:Like you would not know, like, what his biography looks like and you know where he's served, what he's done and the heights that he's climbed to in terms of the military. Uh, unless you were to, uh, explicitly ask him or google him or look up his biography, his credentials that come behind him, because he just naturally is someone that's very humble. I still remember one of the first meetings where my duties got reassigned under him and we met and one of the first things he said was well, what do you think? And and and so it's just this. You know, like he's just a very humble person that values other people's voices and opinions, and uh, and things like that and and so, um, but I do see him, as you know, a quote unquote alpha male because you know he's a leader, he's out front, he can be assertive when he needs to, he can be directive when he needs to, but he's also a very humble person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. Now, the trait of humility, I think, is a big contrast to the cultural myth of the alpha male, which is not humble, which is very proud and boisterous. So it's a good contrast. Sam, I'm asking a lot of questions. Do you want to chime in at all? I think we might. Yeah, we can see. Yeah, we can see.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, did you guys just finish the last question? I hadn't gotten to the last question.
Speaker 2:Yet if you want to hop on that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was interested in in hearing about um. This just kind of came up as you were talking about your boys, because I have three boys and one of the things that I think about often is the world, obviously, that they're going to grow into. I mean, my oldest is seven, next one is five, and then the youngest is three and um, so I just think about, okay, five, ten years from now, what kind of messages are they going to be hearing about manhood, about what it's like to you know, to be a man in this culture, and I'm thinking about all the possible negative messages that they have today, like you know, oh, you know, you need to share all your feelings, or you need to do this, which, at the surface, they sound good, but I think one of the things that I'm realizing is, if that's the only message that they're hearing from everyone, then that's all they're going to know. So I'm almost trying to counter whatever those beliefs are In the lessons that you're teaching your sons, where you want to be tough and you also want to know how to identify what you're feeling and be able to regulate those emotions. Right, and you mentioned the thing about the pool.
Speaker 1:You know, for my, my boys are super competitive and I get that. I mean even just coming to the car, ok, I'm going to race you to the car, and so on, super, and if they lose they start crying. So it's kind of like teaching them these different lessons that there's a good space to be competitive, but that also when you lose, okay, what do you do with that? You know and how do you feel? So what are some messages that you're maybe hearing from other people, made from other parents or the culture in general, that maybe counter or go against what you naturally believe? So, for example, one for me feel all your emotions or share all your feelings. I don't think that that's actually good for boys to share. So you have to have some space one person, two, but maybe three that are safe, but you can share with them that they just try to understand. Obviously I'm gonna be one of them. I only myself.
Speaker 1:Men who and you can look up to right. So what are some things that you're hearing? Sam you broke up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Can you ask your question? Maybe just abbreviate it and just ask your question again.
Speaker 3:You broke up a little bit. Yeah, he did, but I think I got the gist of it. Okay, you know, for me I would say the attack is even more. You know, for me I would say the attack is even more. You know, from culture is even more explicit than the traits or the or I'll call them symptoms that you know in like, hey, you know, you should feel free to share all your emotions. So, you know, for me, I, you know, and we I think we just had this conversation in the car on the way to church yesterday about. You know, I said to my kids, I said, look, decades ago the attack from culture on Christianity had to do with marriage One man, one woman.
Speaker 3:That was the definition of marriage and still is the definition of marriage in Genesis. And I said we lost that battle here in the American culture decades ago. And now the attack is even more base level than that. I said now what's being attacked is gender itself. You know, in Genesis God created man, he created woman, and now the attack is on that very construct and concept. So the attack no longer is on the issue of marriage, it's on what we're talking about here gender as a construct. You know what's the point of manhood if there's no such thing as a man or a woman, or there's choice or there's neither. And then you know, and what I always, and what I did yesterday with my boys too, is here's the problem with Scripture, is it doesn't align with Scripture.
Speaker 3:As a Christian, if you know, if you say you're a Christian and the basis of your morality is God's Word, this is what God's Word says about this contemporary issue. Now, that doesn't mean that you go around hating people, right, I always bring them back to. Everybody is created in the image of God, okay, whether they believe that or don't believe that, they have inherent worth because they are made in the image of God. Now, you don't have to, and you should not align with what they believe or their value systems, and your value system should be based on God's Word and what it says on this contemporary issue. Right, and so for me, I think that's one thing that's explicitly already under attack that my kids are going to have to face. You know, you guys probably relate to this. Like you know, we didn't have to worry about bathrooms growing up, like there's two types of bathrooms. Now my kids have to be taught, you know, growing up which bathroom to go into, and you know and what isn't okay. You know, and I had, you know we had and what isn't okay in terms of, like you know, genders entering bathrooms of. You know that's not designated for the gender things, issues like that I have to now coach my kids up on. Um, we didn't have to be coached up on that growing up, right, and so uh. So those are, uh, some of the uh, the issues that I think are explicitly under attack in terms of symptoms and things like that.
Speaker 3:You know, as I knew we were going to have this conversation about this topic, I guess what kept coming back to my mind is the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, self-control. Above all, you know there are no laws concerning these right, and so I keep coming back to those traits, those fruits of the Spirit that we're supposed to exhibit as Christians, and, as you said earlier about other things that don't align with the alpha male concept. I don't think those fruits also that fruit aligns very well with the alpha male concept either, because there's not a lot of that. You know. Aggressiveness, assertiveness, you know it's love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, self-control. That's what's described in Scripture and you know how that translates and you know I'm certainly not perfect in it, but I had a recent illustration that I hope my kids are not just hearing.
Speaker 3:Tracy, she is early to bed and she needs her sleep to operate well. As mentioned, she homeschools five kids. Her life is crazy compared to mine. I get to come into work in a quiet office with my monitor, my screen, and handle issues as they come. She's at home with five kids ranging from age two to 13, four males and one female, and so she needs her sleep. And so you know when our kids get sick, and so this just happened.
Speaker 3:A few days ago, ezekiel, our two-year-old, caught something. He was running a fever, he was puking, but it was. But it but it is. And it was me that wakes up when he cries in the middle of the night and I go into the nursery. I rock him in the chair. He pukes over me. I go try to clean that up. The second night I brought him in bed with me becauseukes over me. I go try to clean that up.
Speaker 3:Um, the second night I brought him in bed with me because I didn't want to keep walking into the nursery, so I had him in bed with me and I told tracy, you go sleep in caris's room. There's a, you know, and we have a lot. We've, fortunately, we have a house large enough with multiple rooms and so and so I sent her and said you go sleep there. I will have ziki in bed with us and in our bed, um, and that way I can keep tabs on him. I'm a late sleeper anyways.
Speaker 3:Uh, when our kids get sick, I get worried. I can keep tabs on his temperature. I take it, you know, and I, and when he wakes up and you know he's, you know whether it's the fever or freaking out because it's a different room uh, I calm him down and get him to go back to bed, uh, and and so, uh. So my family knows and my kids know that it's when someone gets sick, it's it's usually daddy that sleeps with them, not mom, right.
Speaker 3:And so I think that that also doesn't fit the concept of an alpha male, right, like that's not. You know, I don't think that's a role of an alpha male, right To be awake at night or have the little ones in bed with them. You know, that's something that I think you would stereotype as, oh, that's the wife's role or you know that's, you know somebody else's role, but I think that that is, you know, that exhibits more the fruit of the Spirit in you know, love, in kindness, in you know the nurturing side of being a parent, the nurturing side of being a dad. That is needed right. So, you know, I think for me it comes down to balance, right, like teaching my boys and my daughter that you need to be able to approach life or things in a very balanced manner.
Speaker 3:There are times that you need to be assertive, then other times you don't need to be assertive and you need to step back and let it just roll. There are times that you're going to need to be compassionate and nurturing and then there's other times that you're not and you're going to have to, you know, kick someone in the pants and say stop it or go do it. You know, and I think that's the truth that comes from Ecclesiastes, you know, and balance, and not living in extremes. And I think the alpha male is an extreme, you know, I think it's an extreme concept, extreme ideology, and it's not a good place to live in extremes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. You're exactly right. You know, in the quote-unquote manosphere online, which is this virtual netherworld of men talking to each other, it's like a big echo chamber online. There's this idea that raising that, of course, is a man's job. You get to enjoy all the good benefits of child making, but in terms of raising them, that's a woman's job. That's a pervasive attitude online. So I'm glad you mentioned that. When it comes to being a man and parenting, I don't have any children, sam. You have three boys, so you could probably speak to this more, but there's this balance of yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just going to say because Dr Wu's referenced that a lot as well this aspect of children. They need different things from each parent and there's a lot of research as well where they'll discipline and, you know, looking out for others, and the mom kind of has this more nurturing side where she's trying to comfort them when they are experiencing the stress and just being there for them, providing for their basic needs and so on. But all of that compliments itself doesn't mean that the other parent can't do those things. It's just kind of these natural roles that we fall into and we're trying to learn the other side, you know to. To dr woo's point about being there for the kids, like I remember when, when the boys were super young just because I do a lot of uh, uh work with attachment, I mean if they cried, I mean I was just there, uh, you know, so, um, so they could feel secure that someone was always going to be able to meet their needs during that time, so, um, so yeah, there's this, this, this balance that both parents can provide for for the children and this whole.
Speaker 1:You know, tim, when you and I spoke to our, says beta, like we don't talk about it. As christians we're just to dr who's point are just wanting to develop the fruits of the spirit. But because it's such a heavy conversation and culture like we're addressing and trying to make sure that like for our audience who's listening, you know, the goal is not to be alpha beta, sigma or any of these things, it's to develop the fruits of the Spirit. I think that's what we're trying to communicate through this is that as Christian men in modern culture, we're not concerned about being alpha beta or any of these things. We want to develop the fruits of the Spirit and hopefully the audience is getting that from this conversation with all our different backgrounds, right. I think that's, that's what they're away from this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. Well, Dr Wu, do you have any closing thoughts, anything you want to leave the audience with before we wrap up our time here?
Speaker 3:Not that I can think of. So appreciate the time to speak with you guys and it's been an honor, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're very appreciative of you coming on and being the brave first interview on the Psych and Theo podcast, so we appreciate it, especially on a topic like this. Everyone's got opinions on topics like this, but we're very thankful that you came on and shared your story, your testimony, and you know, I'll just have you know, just to brag on you a bit. You know, as we were thinking about the concept of this series on Alpha Beta, the myth of the Alpha Beta and then interviewing men on Alpha Beta, the myth of the Alpha Beta and then interviewing men, we might title this series of interviews called Gentle Dangerous Men, because it's based off something Jordan Peterson has said, which is to be a man who is capable of violence but it can be gentle is a true man. If you're not capable of channeling your anger, your rage and everything else in a constructive way to be a protector and a provider, then you're not really dangerous at all. A provider, then you're not really dangerous at all.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's so as we thought about, like well, the gentle who are the gentle dangerous men that we could interview, that sort of exemplify this, the balance, what we would say is a Christ-like manner of you model, the fruits of the Spirit. But you have, you know, you have the street creds, as they would say, of manhood, you know, and so you were one of the first ones that I thought of. I was like, you know, we should interview Dr Wu, get Dean Wu on here and interview him.
Speaker 1:So he's going to be a gentle. Dangerous man. Your picture right there, Dr Wu. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I appreciate that fellas, because it tells me that Christ's work in me is still. He's still alive and working in me. Because I would not and I don't think my wife would describe me as a gentle man either at points in our lives so so it's good to know that. Uh, that is. That's part of the description yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:Hey, some men got to work on gentleness, others got to work on the capacity for danger. Yeah, good point. Good point too, all right. Well, dr wu, thank you so much for joining us on Psych and Theo. We really appreciate it. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks, dr Woo, take care you too. Alright, everyone. Well, that concludes our interview with Dr Darren Woo. We hope you enjoyed that interview. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes and upcoming interviews that we have with other gentle dangerous men. We'll see you next time. Great title.
Speaker 1:See you next time. Great title See you next time.
