Psych and Theo Podcast
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 24 - Manhood Series, Part 1: Is the Alpha Male a Myth? Unpacking the Complexities of Masculinity
Is the idea of the "alpha male" nothing more than a myth? Today on the Psych and Theology podcast, we question the very foundation of the alpha versus beta male dichotomy. Tim and I start by dissecting the societal pressures surrounding these labels and scrutinize the origins of the alpha male ideal. We explore the flawed studies of wolf pack behavior that have been misapplied to human relationships, and ponder the chaos that could arise if everyone adopted an alpha persona. Together, we introduce the concept of gamma males and other personality types, showcasing the rich diversity of male experiences and behaviors.
Next, we dive into a critical examination of how these paradigms have influenced societal norms and personal relationships. By emphasizing the complexity and uniqueness of human behavior, we argue against the simplistic animal analogies often used to define masculinity. We also highlight how behavior is context-dependent and shaped by environmental rewards, making certain traits beneficial in one setting but potentially detrimental in another. Our discussion moves beyond rigid categorizations to encourage embracing individuality, stressing the importance of adapting behavior to various situations.
Finally, we explore the impact of societal incentives on male behavior and relationships, examining how hyper-feminism and negative incentives like family court repercussions influence men's choices. We touch on the phenomenon of hypergamy in dating apps, which pressures men to adopt alpha traits despite their unsuitability for long-term relationships. Concluding with a call to dispel the alpha-beta paradigm, we advocate for personal growth, empathy, and assertiveness. By embracing Christian principles and the fruits of the spirit, men can cultivate healthier, more balanced approaches to masculinity. Join us as we navigate these complex dynamics and aim to provide clarity on how to approach masculinity in a nuanced and thoughtful way.
All right, everyone. Welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast, the topic that is so culturally relevant alphas versus betas and Tim and I have discussed this extensively. It's been a topic of conversation for many men, and even women have jumped into the conversation as well. But Tim, yeah, why do we want to talk about this alpha versus beta dynamic?
Speaker 2:Well, I think you know the impetus for this was the cultural conversation we were seeing, especially, you know, the earlier episode we did with Andrew Tate, jordan Peterson that's where a lot of this came about, jordan Peterson, that's where a lot of this came about, so that's where this conversation started. Was we started honing in on the tendency among men to say that they want to be an alpha male? Every man wants to be an alpha male and no one wants to be a beta male. And so there's this binary choice you either choose to be an alpha or you remain a beta the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:You're forever cursed to be a beta um. Alpha being assertive, dominant, in charge, all that. And beta being submissive, subordinate, subject to the whims of the, the tough life that you live, you know, whatever, whatever. So all these men you know are being told you got to be an alpha. The reason you're unhappy, the reason your life sucks right now, the reason you're not getting what you want, is because you haven't channeled your inner alpha and you got to become an alpha male. And hardly any of them stop to think can we all be alphas if the alpha is in charge? Can we actually all be alphas? Yeah, just getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think that this paradigm suffers from what's called the fallacy of composition, where you can't really apply something to everyone. It's like can we all have a trillion dollars without the effects of inflation? No, we can, we can't. If you pump that much money into the economy, the dollar is going to get inflated into infinity. Like that, we can't all be in charge. We can't all be alphas Under this paradigm. If an alpha is the one that's in charge, imagine a world where every man saw himself as an alpha and started acting as an alpha, as we will describe it. It would be a terrible world to live in. It would be yeah, it definitely would be.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's why other men have to define. They define themselves as alpha and everyone else as a beta. No, no, no, it's the other guys that are betas. Right, where did this come from? Is it a myth that Christians, christian men, should accept for themselves? Is it a paradigm through which Christian men should see themselves and other men? That's the question I think that we need to answer.
Speaker 1:So I think as we jump into this conversation we'll define a couple of our terms, we'll kind of explain a little bit about what the alpha versus beta is and then hopefully we'll start getting into some pros and cons of both and there's also descriptions of many others, as Tim has discovered that there is a range apparently. So it keeps on growing and hopefully by the end of this episode you will leave with some clarity on what the actual goal of engaging this conversation is. So as we start our conversation, just kind of just and most of you guys may know already what we refer to when we say alpha and beta, but some may not, right? So alpha just think of someone who is assertive, confident and dominant in social situations. They just want to come off as the leader of the pack, they want to be the most loud voice in the room. But that doesn't always get expressed in the same way. It could also be an attitude that a person has towards life. We'll talk about the alpha here.
Speaker 1:The beta male is often more described as more passive, collaborative, empathetic and interpersonal interactions and so on. But this carries with it a negative connotation, kind of like that they're weak and that they don't have any real opinions about things when they may just leave space for others to give their thoughts and opinions. So those are the two extremes that we're kind of talking about, and you know, we spoke about the Jordan Peterson, andrew Tate and we kind of had that same type of conversation, both maybe being considered alphas just in a different way, because their personalities are completely different, their experiences are very different, their values are very different. So now we're going to jump into this aspect of not alpha versus alpha, but maybe alpha versus beta, and then any of the other categories that we've been seeing. But yeah, tim, anything you want to add to those definitions or the other categories.
Speaker 2:No, well, I'll add one thing these other personalities that have come up out, because some men have been dissatisfied with the binary choice of alpha or beta and so there's been other personality traits that have been, let's say, identified in this debate. So let me read some of these for you. So, of course you have alpha males and I identified in this debate. So let me read some of these for you. So of course you have alpha males, and I'll just define this. This is from the Good Men Project. They define alpha males as the personality type that's strong, determined, confident, clear about their goals. They're characterized by a sense of leadership, a strong sense of self, charismatic, attractive, think the total package. Beta males are typically friendly, respectful, have incredible social skills. They're approachable. People gravitate toward them, especially women, in terms of friendships and things like that. They love you around others and they seek appreciation and approval. Uh, but they're, they're um kind of maligned sometimes for being submissive and uh, subservient and subordinate, uh, to to alpha males. And so the beta undo this paradigm is almost intrinsically, you know, inferior. Then there's some others gamma, gamma males. Now, folks, this is not necessarily, this is not our view. We're describing what men are talking about in the culture. Uh, so we're going to take we're going to analyze these later like, or at least like take them apart. But um, here's the third one gamma.
Speaker 2:Gamma males are described as interesting and adventurous. They seek joy and fulfillment in life through new experiences. They love traveling to exotic places, exploring various lifestyles and avoiding monotonous routines. So think of them as like the adventurous, artistic type person, just kind of freewheeling, like spontaneous guy. Yeah, then there's the omega males.
Speaker 2:Omegas are highly self-aware, confident individuals who don't feel the need to seek power or win popularity contests. However, they're driven and motivated uh, from within by focusing on their personal goals. Uh, they're intellectually inclined, uh, and they might fit the the description of like a nerd or a geek or any type. So they're sort of the intellectual kind of nerds. Um, so they can be, they can be assertive when it comes to, like, uh, mental, psychological, intellectual subjects. But physically they're not dominant and physically, like they wouldn't be socially dominant either. Um, so, yeah, that's the omega deltas. Uh, delta male demonstrates more reserved characteristics, uh, realistic perspective on life. Think of like the man who kind of blends in, just kind of rides in the middle a lot. Um, he kind of wears basic t-shirts doesn't seek to stand out. You know, it's like I kind of I was reading the delta.
Speaker 2:I'm like that seems like me, uh, but uh, yeah, so they. They focus on essential things in life like respect, relationships, competence, normalcy, um. So they don't seek to rock the boat either as an alpha when they don't want to be a beta or anything like that. So that's the Delta. Two more Sigma. Male Sigmas are like these. They're described as cunning and clever personalities. They're not afraid to challenge the system. I love these, like platitudes that these websites give to these personalities Right.
Speaker 2:The Sigma is like the lone wolf guy Sets his own rules, kind of goes about his own way, Kind of like you described.
Speaker 1:I think you said John.
Speaker 2:Wick John.
Speaker 1:Wick would be a personality type like that.
Speaker 2:Or like Fonzie from Happy Days, although Fonzie's more extroverted, so something like that. He exists outside of the system. And then the last one is called Zeta males, and Zeta males create their own rules, don't conform. So it's similar to Sigma. They don't conform to social standards. They're considered a mix of Alpha and Sigma. I don't know. I don't see what the difference would be with zeta, like what, where they stand out. I'm just looking at the description. I don't see them. They're saying the zeta is there, so I don't know there's no science.
Speaker 1:I think it's what we're getting at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so okay. So those are all the personality types that people have identified among men, and I think the tendency is for men to say, oh, I'm one of those, like they want to gravitate into, latch onto one of those and say which one am I? I'm this one. It's the men's Enneagram.
Speaker 1:I mean, remember Enneagram, like everyone wants it to be. You know a number three or number seven or whatever the case is. And I'm just like you know a number three or number seven or whatever the case is, and I'm just like you know. Just be who you are, you know you don't need to. I think we were talking earlier about boxing yourself into a specific category, you know. But like anything with personalities, with these, with these different types of males, I mean there's pros and cons, right, there's pros and cons to both pros and cons to personalities is just finding kind of where you fit. There's pros and cons to both pros and cons to personalities is just finding kind of where you fit.
Speaker 2:And I guess you know I don't know if you had anything that you wanted to add to that was going to get into the pros and cons of the being the alpha male or beta males. Well, before we do that, I think we need to explain to the audience where this paradigm actually comes from, where it started, where it started and so, like just very, very, very brief history, the the idea of alpha males and beta males uh in relationships, was first discovered by an alaskan um zoologist, or a zoologist who was up in alaska observing, uh, the relationships of wolves, pack animals, and he noticed that there was one wolf who was in charge, leading the pack, and the other wolves took orders from him, and so they he named that the alpha male, and then the others were described as beta males. In that sense, um, along the way, uh, that study had was supplemented by some other studies. I think there was ultimately problems with that study. Um, I don't, I couldn't recall, like exactly what those problems were. I remember we're learning about this a long time ago. But essentially, the main problem that we have now is that this flawed study of wolves in alaska got extrapolated out into human relationships, and this is what happens so often, uh, with nature related things.
Speaker 2:People do this all the time, and you see this with evolutionary biologists and evolutionary psychologists, especially you being a mental health professional. You probably had to study some evolutionary psychology, but I see this all the time in the field of evolutionary psychology, um, when I'm dealing with, like, apologetic issues, um, evolutionary psychologists will try to explain human relationships and human behaviors by animal relationships and animal behaviors, because, after all, we came from them, right, we evolved from them. And so what happened with this wolf study is that it got extrapolated out into human relationships where, oh, someone concluded, oh, human beings act this way too. There were some later studies of chimpanzees and monkeys, a lot of studies on them, because they're our closest relatives in the evolutionary chain and observing how they act, observing how they act and, uh, in chimp tribes there's, there's usually a dominant male who gets to mate with all the females and all the other males are subservient to him, and so if they want to mate, uh, they have to basically beat him, uh, and so, and so evolutionary biologists and jordan peterson even is guilty of doing this too, of extrapolating animal behavior and relationships into making that normative.
Speaker 2:For what normative means Like applicable and something that's a moral duty for humans to do, like it's normative, like it's a norm, a moral norm for humans to do. So he's been guilty of this. They make animal behaviors normative for human beings, basically saying nature and nature, we see this behavior, and so we, we take, we extrapolate or we infer from this is how nature is, so this is how nature ought to be, or the nature of human beings, so animals act this way. Therefore humans ought to act this way and we can.
Speaker 2:We can imagine all kinds of problems with that. I mean, animals are predatory. Let's start with that. Um, yeah, we have human beings who are predatory, but we don't condone it, do we? You know, we see animals devouring each other all the time, uh, mercilessly, but we don't condone that as a human being. We see all kinds of mating rituals and animal kingdoms and phyla that we don't apply to ourselves. I mean, animals don't ask for permission when they want to mate. You know, right now, sometimes, like the male, like you see the psychic birds, um, canines, chimps, any of them, there are these mating rituals where some female will have to give permission for the mating to occur, but that's not always the case. Sometimes a male species of an animal kingdom will force himself onto a female.
Speaker 2:We don't accuse them of rape, like we do humans so there's this big problem just in the literature and this whole study of human relationships, where people will try to take lessons from the animal kingdom as though they're applicable necessarily to humans. That's a big flaw.
Speaker 1:And a lot of the help was emphasized a lot too. It's like well, this is just how it is in the animal life, so it makes sense that we're going to be like this too. And they emphasize those things. Yeah, realizing the moral wrongdoing with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mistake in their thinking is they just want to see the similarities between humans and animals, right, oh, how are we?
Speaker 1:similar. How are we similar?
Speaker 2:Well, before you want to, before you conclude that human beings, that a behavior is okay for human beings to do because, animals are doing it.
Speaker 2:First ask how are human beings different than the animals? Are they essentially different? And in the Christian worldview we would say, yeah, human beings are essentially different than animals. We're not just a higher form of evolved species, we are a spiritual, rational being, and our spirit allows us and gives us a moral character, like the rational agency by which we make decisions about the world comes with a moral character, and that moral character helps us to judge our thoughts and our actions. We have a conscience by which we judge our thoughts and our actions. Animals don't have that. So that's a big difference between us.
Speaker 2:And now the evolutionary biologists will try to argue that our conscience comes from some survivalist instinct. And we and we have answers for that, um, in the christian apologetics world, um, so, to boil it down, morality. What I'm really getting at is that, um, in a lot of these, a lot of this thinking, what's beneath the surface, with a lot of men and they may that may not realize this is that the ideology beneath the surface of this alpha beta debate is an ideology that we are just like animals and that our sense of morality is simply a higher, higher evolved form of survival instinct. And that is not true, but a lot of men don't realize that is the paradigm that's lurking beneath the surface of this debate, about whether you're an alpha or meta or gamma and all these other things it comes up in other worldview, or their premise of that we come from animals.
Speaker 1:Because if they believe that, then obviously it seems difficult to try to convince them otherwise, because they're going to think that they have animal instincts and can't control them. But they should follow their instincts and drives right yeah, yeah, exactly okay.
Speaker 2:So I just went off on a soapbox. Where do you want?
Speaker 1:to go from that. No, that's good, you know. One thing that that came to mind was it's interesting, though, because one of the actually this was done, one of the studies that was done um, to see what reinforces certain types of behavior or what continues certain types of behavior, and it's whatever gets rewarded, whatever type of behavior gets rewarded. That is what the person is going to be more likely to do. So, for example, if you, as a male, are in a work setting right, and you're typically more quiet and more reserved, and maybe more relational, and so on more quiet and more reserved, and maybe more relational, and so on it will take you longer to maybe move up the ranks if you don't become assertive. And why is that? Well, because the people who are vocalizing their interests and vocalizing what their goals are, they are essentially being rewarded for giving themselves a voice. Right, they're putting themselves out there, they're saying, hey, I want to raise, hey, I want this new position, whatever the case is, so that gets rewarded. Now, if you were to be in that same setting and let's say you, anyone who took that approach that that would get punished. Right For you. In that sense, it's going to be a good thing that you're maybe quiet and just waiting your turn or your time to move up the ranks, right? So it's whatever setting that you're in, most people are looking at well, what's being rewarded. If being an alpha is not being rewarded, then I'm not going to take on the characteristics of being assertive and dominant and pushy, right? So I think a big part of this conversation is when you look at your surroundings. We call this an attachment. It's not just the way that you relate, but there's another piece of it, which is adaptation. How do you adapt to the people around you? And this works in relationships. This is in work settings, this is in church settings even. Right, what works? That's typically how we try to operate. What's working for me, right. What works? That's typically how we try to operate. What's working for me.
Speaker 1:So if you're acting in you know beta form or have some sort of beta characteristics and that's working for you, then you're going to continue those same behaviors. If it's not working for you, it's going to push you in a direction where, well, you know what? Maybe I should try to be more assertive because you know, I'm just getting walked all over getting walked all over here, or I've been waiting for a raise for the last three, four, five years and nothing's happened. So I think I need to learn how to be more assertive. So you try to be assertive and then if that attempt or if that behavior gets punished, you'll stop doing that and you'll go back to being a beta, by the description that we're giving. Now. If you're an alpha and you are dominant and you are assertive and so on, but it's not working for you in your workspace or in your relationships, then you're going to stop that behavior. If you want a relationship, right, you can't be treating people, just telling them what to do and expect that you're going to have a relationship when you do that. So it needs to be strong enough to move you into a different direction. So we will continue doing behaviors that get rewarded.
Speaker 1:So, for example, some of the pros of being an alpha male is that sometimes they can be very inspiring because of their leadership qualities, right, they just kind of take things as they are. They want to move forward, they want to take action and deal with the consequences later. You know that can inspire other people. That can be good. Confidence and assertiveness, right. If someone feels confident, that can make me feel confident about where we're going to or make others feel confident about where they're going, and social dominance, kind of this aspect of who are they influencing, who do they have influence over? Right, and if they have strong influence with different types of people, we can see that as a pro because it help us. It can help us reach our goals. So it needs a certain type of personality, it needs a certain type of approach. Right, you can learn these different ways of approaching situations, um, but it comes naturally for others, right? Some people are just naturally more dominant, so, behavior wise, maybe their dad is military, so they learn those types of behaviors as well and they take that dominance into their relationships. Again, if it works, they're going to keep doing it. If it doesn't work, they'll stop, Right, but here's some cons of of the alpha male, and we kind of talked about this with one of our, one of our guests earlier, tim.
Speaker 1:But there's a tendency for the alpha to be aggressive and arrogant and people don't like that, right. So some people will perceive that confidence as arrogant and aggressive and others will see it as you know. Oh, that's confidence. So it really comes down to who they have around them. That's going to interpret that type of behavior, but a con for those who are alpha. They tend to be aggressive and arrogant and that's just not appealing in certain settings and situations. They have difficulty prioritizing cooperation, so they want to do things their way. They don't want to really hear anyone else out. They think that their way is the only way and they'll try to impose that on others. That's not a good thing and it poses strain on relationships.
Speaker 1:Right, in relationship you're both giving 100% and typically, from what we've seen, tim, with these alpha males, it's like I receive everything. I'm going to give you just a little bit or just enough, because I need to reserve my resources for all these other things that I'm doing in my life. So that's not conducive to a healthy relationship, right? Romantic or friendships. Right, when you're just thinking about yourself and carrying out your desires and your wants and your needs, you know it won't help any type of relationship, right? So those are the pros and cons of the alpha male, the beta male would.
Speaker 1:The pros are they emphasize a lot of collaboration. Right, when you're working on teams, you want to be able to get along with people and want to help people come together. So everyone feels heard, everyone feels understood and everyone feels like they have a voice in whatever the project is In a relationship. Same thing, right, your view is not the only view you got to take, in your partner's view as well. Right, they have a good capacity for empathy, like feeling pain that other people feel, at least trying to understand. And they're flexible, right, you know, they can go along with wherever you know, whatever's happening at the time. They don't have to have a strict schedule. They can kind of adapt to the situation. They realize things come up and okay, yeah, let's do that, right. So those are some pros that help a lot in the relational space.
Speaker 1:The cons, as we kind of alluded to earlier, is there is this tendency to be overlooked because they don't become, they don't really assert or explain or elaborate on their thoughts and feelings, you know, in the relationships or at work or whatever the case is. So because they don't say much or, you know, cause much distraction, they're just overlooked, right, it's just that person does not really notice one way or the other. They may have trouble setting boundaries, right, so they may just say yes to everything. So they're always burned out, always looking for oh man, I can never get some rest and they just have a very difficult time setting boundaries because they want to be there for everyone else. Again, it can be good, but in that case, where it hurts them, it's a negative thing. And lastly, a con is they can be overshadowed, often by those more dominant personalities. So they might have really good ideas, but if you don't sell your point or sell your idea, the person who is more vocal and outgoing and assertive you know their idea might be, might be heard more than yours.
Speaker 1:So for those who are talking, or as we're talking about these, these two different types, it's looking at those pros and cons and just understanding okay, what do I need for this specific situation? Right, forgetting about the data, about the beta and the alphas. Just think about, for this specific situation, relationship, work, space, church, involvement, like, what do I need? What's needed here? And then just asking God for wisdom to know okay, how can I approach this situation? That's causing me some distress, right? Because if you're trying to be an alpha and you're not getting anywhere because you're getting everyone mad because of how you're approaching relationships with them, then obviously you're going to have to stop that behavior. If you're more quiet and reserved and aren't asking for a raise, but you want to raise, then you're going to have to learn how to be more assertive and we do in counseling, we doiveness, techniques and, um, how to explain your needs and set your boundaries, and so on. So just what do I need and how can I learn it?
Speaker 2:essentially all right, so let's, that's a lot. Let's unpack some of this. Yeah, so let's, uh, let's back the truck up a bit and go back to this pragmatic concept that you talked about. Yeah, people often respond. People will respond to incentives and men will respond to incentives. Uh, so you said. You said uh, in counseling, you ask people what's working. You know what's what's working for you If something's not working for you you have to adapt.
Speaker 2:You have to. So if you're not assertive enough and you want to get a raise, you're going to get promotion or or something, or something. You have to learn to be more assertive because you're getting passed over. Or if you're being too assertive and you're wrecking relationships, trying to be too dominant, too domineering, well, that's not working for you. You need to find something else.
Speaker 2:I think in our culture there's a lot of men who are being incentivized in the wrong ways. Oh yeah, that, I think, gives this myth power, the myth of the alpha beta. I think it gets power from bad incentives in our culture We've talked about we did an episode on the red pill community and how, uh, feminist, like one of the problems that our culture is that hyper, hyper feminism, um, that flips a lot of natural incentives on its head. Like a man wants to be a provider for his home, he wants a stable family, he wants a peaceful home, uh and uh, he doesn't want to be cuckolded by the state, he doesn't want to have his life ruined by the financial incentives of the family court. I'm just saying all the things that the Red Pill community have brought up. There's this negative incentive to avoid marriage now because of these situations in our culture. So the incentive now is for men to just seek out sexual gratification and sexual encounters without marriage, without any commitment. So how do you do that in a culture like this? Well, you have a culture of women now who, um, not of course it's not all women, but, like the, there's a growing proportion of women who are also being sexually promiscuous in their 20s into their early 30s. So you have a situation where people are not getting married, they're having sex with each other like it's just rampant. And then you have to throw in the lgbt issue as well. The incentives to have a stable family are really, really like bad right now.
Speaker 2:So a man like there's also in that, in that uh, space where men feel like they keep, like they um, they can't get a woman because, like the incels and the big towels, like women I think we talked about in the feminism episode like this problem of hypergamy, where women now, because of the dating apps, they're disproportionately hooking up with these hyper. They're disproportionately hooking up with these hyper, like the nines and tens, so to speak, of men, these hyper narcissistic men who are sleeping around with all the women. So all the women are kind of gravitating toward that. They're all fighting over this like top quote, unquote, top tier man and all these other men are without any sort of hope for a mate or a wife or whatever. So now, what's their incentive? Now, if they want to have a family, if they want to have a successful partner or a romantic partner in their lives, what's the incentive? Well, the incentive is to act like the narcissistic uber, you know, uber man. Uh, if that's, what they want.
Speaker 2:If what they want is to be sleeping around with all those women have the same type of lifestyle, then they will have to take on those characteristics, right because they're told the reason you, the reason you are the reason you're single, or the reason you're lonely is because you're being too beta, and so you need to act more alpha in order to get to get a woman in your life, and so you need to embody the traits of what it means to be an alpha and, unfortunately, the culture is telling you that, they're telling them that the alpha is all of these different, really bad traits that are short term thinking to the max, right?
Speaker 1:no, and here's the interesting thing too, tim, is that it's funny because those alphas they can get all of these different women and they have fun with it, for whatever number of you know, whatever season, but they can't hold long-term relationships because, again, that that alpha personality or that alpha approach, it doesn't work for long-term relationships. So for the beta it's like okay, if you have those strong capacity for empathy and connection, then maybe you just need to learn a little assertiveness and not go to that extreme of being beta, alpha right. So for them it's interesting because their strength is the weakness of the alpha right, so they can maintain healthy relationships. But to get there, their, their journey is a lot longer because they're waiting for, you know, the right person or they want it to be a long lasting relationship. So it's one of those things where it's like, it's one of the realities, where they have to just learn how to be maybe more.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I want to say assertive, but I don't know. Taking their shot, I guess, is the best way that I can say it. It's just okay, take your shot. You know, that's what I would say to encourage them if they feel that way because they have the qualities and characteristics to hold the relationship. But you know it's encouraging them.
Speaker 1:And that goes back to our point is what's being rewarded? So, if we're trying to help one or the other, what's being rewarded is can you be a little bit more assertive? Can you explain your needs? Do you understand how you feel? Can you communicate that well, and so on. So, yeah, it's just very interesting for me to see how much being an alpha is rewarded, but in the longterm it's actually really bad for you, for your relationships. If that's what you're looking for, right? Um, and I think we talked about that on the Tate and Peterson episode, where we said men are being drawn to Tate because that's what they want. So if they want that, you're going to have to act like Tate. If you want what Peterson has, you have to take on characteristics that he's developed as well, right? So it's just, it's just such an interesting topic. I'm just glad we're talking about it because hopefully we're debunking this myth, as we wanted to, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, so to push back a little bit, I don't think men should should think of themselves as alphas or betas. Right, right, and we talk about think of themselves as alphas or betas. Right, right and we talked about that. Yeah, I think that these categories are not helpful at all.
Speaker 2:Maybe, some will say maybe that's the sigma in me or something. But I just now, you know, in our interviews we're going to talk to some people and we'll talk about what does alpha mean to you. So I think in our interviews we're going to sort of reorient the meaning of alpha to something more biblical.
Speaker 2:But the categories as they are right now I think are really stupid, I think they're really dumb and I think that men who fall into this trap, they're doing themselves a big disservice by just not thinking, by not thinking critically about what the culture is telling you. I'm not calling those men dumb, not saying that at all. Um, but the things that come to us from the culture sometimes are just really dumb and we just you can, you can just dispatch with them with five minutes of critical thinking, um, and I think this is one of those things where you see all kinds of just garbage online, of like this is what you need to do to be an alpha male. It's like I don't need any of that stuff, right, exactly, yeah, you know what you get at, like the.
Speaker 2:What you're getting at is we, when we identify problems in our lives or deficiencies, then we can identify, well, what's working, what's not working for us, like here's a goal, here's something we want, and then what we've been trying? Has it worked? So we got to try something else and maybe that's a shift in our personality, maybe it's a shift in our habits, maybe it's a shift in our spending or or our, you know, prayer, life, spiritual disciplines. It could be anything, a shift in something. Um, I think a lot of men think, oh well, yeah, I could see some men saying this right now, like, oh, I'm an alpha, I just need to be a little bit more gentle of an alpha it's like stop saying just let go of the category let go of it.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Hopefully we're communicating that, that you just let go of that category, because it's not going to be helpful. I think it's just like the personality types, right, whether it's the you know myers-briggs or the enneagram or the ocean personalities, whatever, the case is like you're not constrained to that. Like, you can grow, you can learn, you can continue to you know, seek out knowledge and, and yeah, just grow as a person, growing your faith. And I think, if you look at it more from a growth mindset, right, that ability that with time, you continue to grow and you can learn new things that's going to work much better for you than you thinking that you're just an alpha or beta, right, or a Sigma or the. What's the other one? What's, yeah, omega? I was thinking fish, thinking fish. I'm like what's the fish? Yeah, um, uh, so, yeah, so I, I think you're. You're spot on there, tim. It's a don't if you're listening, those of you who are listening don't categorize yourself as any of these. Like, it's not going to be helpful for you, right, because the culture is talking about it.
Speaker 1:We decided to have this conversation about it, but hopefully we're helping you understand that labeling yourself as one or the other, or wanting to be, you know, the alpha, like that's not going to be good for you. It's better to just kind of develop. You know, as we were talking about, as Christians we want to develop the fruits of the spirit and that changes your mind, that changes your heart, that changes your approach and how you relate to people, that changes your mind, that changes your heart, that changes your approach and how you relate to people, and you know. So those are just some things.
Speaker 1:Like I think we were briefly touching on Tim on, were there Bible characters who kind of displayed either these alpha or betas in their personalities? And the people I think about is Peter and John. Right, I think most people can make that argument. Oh yeah, this, you know Peter was more alpha. And so we try to Christianize, maybe as the word, or spiritualize these things and we say, well, peter was more of an alpha and you know John was more of a beta, or whatever the case is Like don't do that and you're hitting on the problem.
Speaker 2:Okay, would any of you, like I'm asking any man who's listening to this, who's a Christian who has enough sense about it if you were face-to-face with the Apostle John, would you call him a beta male, right, right, like? The answer is obviously no, you would not. The man was boiled alive by the Romans for not recanting his faith in jesus. Like, as tradition goes, he was. He was boiled alive. He survived it and then he was exiled to patmos. So he spent he spent a lot of years of his life on a prisoner island like. Would you call them a beta male because he was kind and gentle? Like? No, right, let's not forget, he was called the son of. He was one of the sons of thunder when he was young because he had anger problems and he learned he learns to be the apostle of love which is where we get his letters so like yeah, I mean you're right, like it's like a very simple reading of the Bible.
Speaker 2:They say, oh yeah, peter's the alpha male Like John or someone else like Arbeta. Would you really say that to someone? Would you call Mark the helper of Paul and Artemis? Would you call him a beta Because he wrote one of the gospels? He wrote probably the earliest gospel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so good.
Speaker 2:That's why we need to just dispel with this paradigm of alpha beta, because it's not helpful at all, like, don't even try to read them into the bible, like, because they're just not helpful. Like you mentioned the fruit of the spirit. Sorry, I'm going off on this one, but no, it's okay you mentioned the fruit of the spirit, like.
Speaker 2:Just think of all the different personalities throughout the bible, like even just the the chapter in Hebrews, the chapter the hall of faith, as it's called, and all the different characters that are mentioned there and their different personalities and life circumstances and the things that they endured and went through. They weren't alpha males. Yeah, maybe one or two of them. You can say, oh yeah, that's an alpha male, but a lot of them were regular, ordinary people. They were scared, like they had fear, they weren't successful or had prestige, as the world would call it.
Speaker 2:You know, hebrews says even that the world was not worthy of these people, the world thought they were worthless but the world was not worthy of them.
Speaker 2:So you can't even slap this paradigm of Alpha and Beta onto characters in the Bible, because the Bible flips a little bit on its head anyways. Yeah, jeremiah was the weeping prophet. Isaiah, according to tradition, was sawn in two. You know David is the archetypical. You know alpha male king. But you know, look at Hezekiah or Josiah. You know other kings that were born into it. You know, look at Samuel. Like Samuel was a prophet and he had some pretty alpha moments, but there were times where he was pretty gentle. I mean, I could go on, I could go on with this, but it's just such a simplistic paradigm that it doesn't help to see how the Bible actually defines people.
Speaker 2:And I think this is what our first interview with Dr Wu came about and then, like what he said, what, what he tries to instill in his kids, and I think this is right the, the, the art, the archetype we should be pursuing obviously is Christ, but I think you could sum that up as character and courage, character being holiness or righteousness. And then the courage, moral courage to face the world and to to do the right thing Absolutely. And you can do that. You can have moral courage no matter what your personality is yeah, no matter what your physical, your physicality is. You can choose. You can have the right character if you submit to God and follow him, and then you can have moral courage to do the right thing, even when it's hard.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, tim, and you know, as you were talking, you know we've been talking to the men about these, uh, different types.
Speaker 1:But the other part of it, too is the conversation is also on the other end too, with the women, right, if they're choosing or wanting alpha light characteristics or beta light characteristics, whatever the case is also so for those women who are listening as well, is that that in a lot of ways, this also speaks to you guys, like, okay, what are you looking for when you're thinking about these different things? Because this conversation is in those same circles, right? So, yeah, we also want to kind of caution, but also just remind you that these categories that you hear about in culture are not helpful. So, if, in your mind, you've kind of developed this archetype of, oh, I want him to have all of these, you know, alpha light characteristics, then you're going to have to deal with the other side of it, which I talked about, the cons of that as well, right, and again, same thing.
Speaker 1:If you look for these other, more gentle characteristics, again, that also comes with its own cons. Well, again, what we're trying to help you guys see is, how are the fruits of the spirit growing in this person. How are they becoming more like Christ? That that becomes more apparent to you than these other things that the culture is so heavily pushing upon men and women and saying this is what you should want, right? So hopefully we're we.
Speaker 2:We debunked that idea I think it's sufficiently debunked. Yeah, I agree, I would. I would. So I just as a recommendation as we close yeah, I would recommend people. You mentioned the fruit of the spirit. I would recommend reading through galatians 5 through 26, which is where the fruit of the Spirit is listed, and ask yourself how many of those line up with what the culture says a man should be. So you have a list there of what we are supposed to be as people who walk in the Spirit, and then ask yourself how many of those traits meekness, gentleness, kindness, you know all those things how many of those embody the quote unquote alpha male in our culture? That's my challenge to our audience. I like it.
Speaker 1:I like it, man. That's good, great conversation. Love this, Love that we're talking about this. I hope you guys enjoy this series as we are going to be interviewing some really key people and we're calling it I don't know if you ever mentioned it, tim, but Gentle Dangerous Men. So look forward to that series. Help us out by submitting topics. Again, there's a little link right when you look for our podcast on Apple, on Apple Podcasts, that could say send us questions or comments, send it there. You know we'll take that in. We really try to listen to what you guys are saying, what you guys want us to talk about, and you know we prepare for it. And again, just leave us a rating and review. That that's going to help the podcast as well. But yeah, thank you guys for tuning in and we'll see you next time.
