Psych and Theo Podcast
Welcome to the "Psych and Theo Podcast". We’re your hosts, Sam and Tim. Join us as we tackle cultural issues by providing insightful discussions from both a theological and psychological perspective.
From celebrity pastors and church controversies to hot-button topics like abortion, gay marriage, and gender identity, we address these issues with grace, humor, knowledge, and wisdom. If you’re looking for thought-provoking conversations on church culture, pop culture, mental health, moral issues, and all things related to the Bible, then you’ve come to the right place.
We do our best to bring our unique perspectives to navigating the complexities of faith and culture through the lens of theology and psychology.
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Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 8 - Guarding Against False Teachings in the Church
Are false teachings in Christianity simply a matter of interpretation, or do they represent a deeper threat to the fabric of faith? Join Tim and me as we navigate the treacherous waters of heresy and false teaching within the church. As Easter approaches, we take a particularly timely look at the psychological and ethical repercussions of misleading doctrines—those that veer from personal preference to significant doctrinal errors—and their impact on the collective belief system of a religious community.
With the rise of charismatic leaders, the appeal of ambition and authority within religious circles comes under scrutiny in our latest episode. We dissect how ego and vanity can distort a preacher's message, referencing Paul's epistles to draw parallels between ancient warnings and modern-day church dynamics. Our exploration goes beyond mere criticism to understand how young pastors can be swept up by congregational pressures, creating a cycle where performance trumps calling. This insight into the church's inner workings serves as an urgent reminder of the need for vigilance and genuine spiritual leadership.
As we wrap up, we equip our listeners with practical tools to spot the red flags of false teachings and recognize when a leader might be straying from the apostolic path. We stress the importance of a robust scriptural foundation, proper interpretation through exegesis, and the Berean approach to cross-examining doctrines. If you're seeking to safeguard your faith against the pitfalls of deception, this episode offers invaluable guidance, helping you to hold fast to sound doctrine and embrace the truth with unwavering conviction.
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All right, everyone. Welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast, the podcast that covers cultural issues from a psychological and theological perspective. I'm Sam, this is Tim and Tim, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:Doing well, man. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing well too. Today was a restful day. It is Good Friday and we are kind of tackling the topic having to do with identifying false teachers. What do you think about that? Oh, yeah, all right All right which is happening.
Speaker 2:We're doing it on all days of Good Friday, you know, yeah right, yeah, and which is something that they come up this week.
Speaker 1:We'll probably do an episode on this later on, but there will be a lot of false teaching happening this Sunday, most likely.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe in some churches. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of good teaching, though.
Speaker 1:That's true. I shouldn't generalize. I shouldn't generalize. All churches are like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sam, come on, come on Sam.
Speaker 1:I need to get with the times. You know, no judgment. I need to go back to that episode where there's no judgment.
Speaker 2:Don't judge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to talk about false teaching, huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, how do you feel about this topic?
Speaker 2:Well, I've spent no more than a few words on this Actually, I probably said that wrong no less than a few words. Yeah, that words. Uh, on this, I actually I probably said that wrong no less than a few words. Yeah, that's what I meant to say. No less than a few words on on this topic, um, being being that I studied theology, studied the bible, and continually am sent videos by people you know, can you believe this guy said this, or what do you think of this? Yeah, it's, the Bible says a lot about false teaching, so we're going to have a lot to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And we're going to talk as we always do and try to see what are the psychological connections to it, as well as the theological and ethical ones. And why don't you start us off, tim, with what false teaching is? Because I think there's a misunderstanding of who false teachers are, what it is that they do, and knowing the difference between people that we just don't like or don't like their style, and actual false teaching, heresy and so on, why don't you give us some education on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's start with. Let's just start with some terms so that everyone can get on the same page and then they know what we're talking about. So we need to ask, like, what do we? What do we mean by false teaching? Because the term false teaching or false teacher can get thrown around a lot. You know, it gets thrown around all the time on the internet. Some person doesn't say something or says something I don't like, and all of a sudden they're labeled as a false teacher. Um, I like to say everyone, everyone is a heretic on the internet to someone.
Speaker 2:All right, um, so let's, let's yeah, yeah yeah, because you know, even even guys like maybe john piper or john mccarthur, some very, very orthodox guy to someone, they think he's a heretic and a false teacher. So just the term gets thrown around a lot. So what do we mean? I think the first distinction we need to make is between false teaching and what the other term I just mentioned was heresy. Okay, sometimes these terms are used interchangeably, but sometimes not, but technically they are distinct. When we say heresy, heresy traditionally refers to some sort of teaching that denies or alters a core theological doctrine of the faith. A heresy would be something like denying the deity of Jesus Christ or the full deity of Jesus Christ, denying the virgin birth, denying the resurrection, saying that the second coming has already come, things like that. Very core doctrines, saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist or God the Father is somehow not creator. There's all kinds of crazy ones out there. Okay, uh, heresy is that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Typically, if someone is teaching heresy, that means that they're teaching something that if you believe this you, you cannot be considered to be in line with orthodox, historic orthodoxy. Orthodoxy means it comes from two words ortho and doxa. Doxa means teaching. That's where we get the term doctrine. Ortho means straight, like when you go to a dentist or an orthodontist you get straight teeth. So orthodox yeah, orthodox means straight doctrine. Heterodox means different or altered doctrine. So that's where you get the term heresy or heretical is that kind of idea. So heretical means that it's altering some sort of core orthodox doctrine that we've believed for 2000 years.
Speaker 2:Sometimes false teaching can fall into that, but sometimes it doesn't. It's helpful to think about false teaching and heresy as, like a Venn diagram. False teaching is more of a broad term and heretical or heresy is a narrow term. So think of, like, false teaching is a big circle and heresy is a smaller circle. That's within side of that.
Speaker 2:So all heresy is false teaching, but not all false teaching rises to the severity of being heretical. Make sense, yeah, so that's the first distinction we need to make. So all heretics are false teachers, but not all false teachers are heretics. And that you could have someone who is perpetuating false teaching but could still be a believer and they're just doing something really, really bad. They're really, really. They're disqualifying themselves from the ministry or something like that, but they're going to make it to heaven, okay, but some false teachers really are heretics, or wolves in sheep's clothing, as we'll talk about, they're not believers and they're destroying the faith. So false teaching is this broad term that could mean one of those things. So when someone says, oh, that guy's a false teacher, we need to ask well, in what sense do you mean he's a false teacher? All right.
Speaker 2:So let's. That's the first distinction. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I did have a question though.
Speaker 1:Yeah sure With with false teacher. I think one of the biggest things that that comes up is are they doing? Are the false teachers are they doing? Are the false teachers, are they doing this intentionally, or are they just uneducated about the context? Because that's really where it kind of comes down to, like understanding, doing a correct, um exegetical study right of the passage. So usually what you'll find is this teacher takes one word or one phrase or one verse and they completely use it out of context. So the question that comes up is are they doing that like on purpose? Do they know that they're doing that, or is it something that they're just not?
Speaker 2:educated on. Well again, I think that goes back to a distinction that we need to make between different kinds of false teaching. So in the Bible there's lots of different passages that refer to false teaching, and some of these passages refer to very evil people and others refer to believers who are deceived into something. Okay. So an instance where there's false teachers who are evil would be like Matthew 7, where Jesus warns his followers that that don't follow. This is the passage.
Speaker 2:If you read matthew 7, the famous passage hey, broad is the way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way that leads to life. You know the other passage well, right after that he's talking about don't follow false teachers. Basically teachers, the ones who can make that broad path and make it really easy. They're going to tell you what you want to hear. So he says, hey, don't follow them. There they are like wolves in sheep's clothing, so they disguise themselves to get into the congregation, to get into the flock and destroy people. So they're wolves. They want. They want to devour people and destroy them. So that would be an example of an evil false teacher, someone who is doing the work of the devil within the church and in that sense they're intentionally doing wrong things or perhaps maybe they are deceived themselves, but they are not on the side of Christ, put it that way.
Speaker 2:Other kinds of false teachers they could be a carnal Christian, someone who is just carnally minded. They're obsessed with worldly things, they're influenced by worldly things, they're controlled by their flesh, and so their teaching is driven by fleshly things. It could be money, it could be just a fixation with, with sensual things, and we'll talk about that, I guess, in a few minutes. So some characteristics of a false teacher. And then, I think, a third degree, so it's like evil people, uh, who are well, it's just called the messengers of satan. You know, in a sense. Then there's the carnal Christians, these worldly, fleshly guys. Maybe they're ambitious or something like that, and then there's the legalistic ones, and not all forms of legalism rise to the level of false teaching, but some can, and so we've got to kind of even split that out. Considered false teaching because they start to alter one's understanding of the gospel or what a Christian might think they need to do to earn salvation or to maintain their salvation. An example of this would be in Galatians, where Paul is correcting false teaching that enters into the church from Judaizers that come into the region. And he says hey, if anyone brings this kind of gospel, let them be accursed. So he's saying that those false teachers are not believers. He's basically saying they're cursed if they're going to be changing the gospel. But some other Christians could buy into this doctrine and start repeating it themselves. And Paul addresses the congregation in Galatians and says hey, why, why do you want to pick up this mantle of legalism from the law and apply it to yourself as christians? You're, you're putting a yoke back on yourself. So if you read the letter to galatians, that's what he's. That's what he's getting at is we've been freed from that, that standard.
Speaker 2:So that kind of legalism can rise to the level of false teaching. So so if you think of it, just to summarize, we have evil non-believers who are doing the work of the devil. They're coming in to destroy the church through changing of orth, changing of orthodox doctrines. It could be sexual immorality, it could be financial, uh, embezzlement, you know, or like that predation of some sort, predatory, abusive power, things like that. It could be any kind of thing like that. Then you have carnal, fleshly teachers who are leading the congregation to sin because they themselves are just carnally minded. And then you have sort of a legalistic form of false teaching. I'm sure someone could break out more forms of that, but that's kind of the three that I think about Now before I go on. Does that maybe answer some of the questions that you asked about intentionality?
Speaker 1:No, no, it does. It clarifies a lot actually, because I think that is something that, for me, it's thinking about. What does it take for a person to get there, like it shows how much these false teachers are willing to put into it to get something out of it right? Because to go through the ranks of the church or to come and present yourself at a different church to get to that level of teaching falsely is, I mean, that's a long process. I mean, what's his name? The Honest Youth Pastor I don't know if you follow him on Instagram or not even using scripture in full, not using as exegetical teaching. So he says that they started off well and at least it was centered on Christ and then, as they got more popular, they moved away from it. So I was just wondering how that looked in practicality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some things. Just to clarify, let's talk about some things that what false teaching is not. You could have preachers who are just arrogant and they're authoritarian in their leadership style. They may be abusive in their leadership style, but they wouldn't be false teachers. That would be something like in 3 John there's an example of a guy named Diotrephes and John says this guy is sort of gatekeeping the church. He's gatekeeping and he's amassing power and control for himself because he wants he says John says he desires preeminence in the congregation. So that's what he wants is preeminence. He wants to be like in control and so he's kicking out people who don't respect, who don't acknowledge his authority. And john's like he's not even acknowledging the people that I send to the church. So you guys need to deal with this.
Speaker 2:This man that would be an example like an arrogant person, another kind that that's not really false teaching but but that's bad and unhealthy would be like ambitious, egotistical preachers, like the sort of fame chasing guys. And maybe that's what maybe some of these guys that you're referring to are, is that they're ambitious and they're egotistical and they're chasing their own platform. They're trying to elevate and expand their own platform. Maybe they're praying the prayer of Jabez or something, and trying to expand that. You know. Sorry, that was a joke, you didn't laugh. You didn't laugh, sam man.
Speaker 1:So part of it is like I was like did you say prayer of Jabez?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the prayer of Jabez. So you?
Speaker 1:have to educate me on Jabez, who you're referring to.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, wow. So the prayer of jabez is a famous line. Where is it? It's an I can't remember the book, it's from the old testament, but, um, it's basically a, a guy. The only thing that's described about him is that he prayed that the lord would expand his territory, and the lord did it okay with them, yeah, and so that people have written all kinds of books on this. You know about.
Speaker 3:Pray that the lord would expand your territory gotcha anyway, yeah, sorry, sorry for that, sorry for that tangent audience, that's good anyway.
Speaker 2:So so you like you'd have these egotistical preachers, and some two examples of that exist, at least two in the new testament. There's philippians, chapter two, where paul's and paul's in prison and he's writing to the philippians who are kind of wondering what do we do about these guys? He says, hey, you know, I hear that some people are preaching Christ. They've been emboldened by my chains and I'm really encouraged by that. Others are taking advantage of the situation that I'm in prison and they're preaching Christ, but they're using it to advance their own platform. It's like they're preaching Christ out of vain ambition. Vain ambition and glory, uh and uh. He says, hey, look, if christ is preached, okay, so he doesn't call them false teachers. He just says, hey, they're doing it for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 2:Another example would be in second corinthians, where paul is addressing the corinthians are all messed up. They got all kinds of problems, yeah, and one of the problems is that they were in Paul's language. They were looking at people according to the flesh. What he means by that is that they were judging the qualities of leaders in the church by their style and their drip, as the Gen Zers would say, their fashion, their rhetorical skill, how flashy they were, how much appeal they had. And Paul is saying you should regard no man according to the flesh. And so he goes into his example about how he didn't come that way to the Corinthians. He came with humility. Like he could have come in a different way, but he came with humility. So he's addressing there this problem in the church of guys who just loved themselves. They loved the platform. Yeah, so that's an example of maybe what false teaching is not.
Speaker 2:But some of these guys that you talk about or not, that we won't name drop, but some of the guys that maybe are in this group of men who start out solid and then end up going way off the reservation. Some of them could be guys who are just ambitious and they get inflated in their own ego and then I think that's an example of them getting deceived. If they really fall into some really serious false teaching, false doctrines like maybe word of faith, movement or prosperity, gospel or things like that, they could be getting taken in by, seduced by false teaching. Other guys just may not be believers, they might be wolves in sheep's clothing and they see the church, and particularly the pastorate, as an opportunity for power.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm sure in your experience as a counselor, you could probably speak to some of that, some of those instances where, like, religious positions of religious authority do attract men who love power and control. And so there maybe is I'm going to go out and I'll live here and guess that maybe there's an outsized distribution of men who are maybe narcissists, who try to maybe gravitate toward pastoral positions. I don't know, I don't. Certainly there's, there's many, many pastors who are not like that, of course.
Speaker 1:But I don't know what do you think? Yeah, no, and that's. That's a good point too. There's, there's a really good author. He actually does this. I think it's called narcissism in the church, something like that, but the author is Chuck the Grote. I don't know if you've heard of him. Oh no, but yeah, he talks a lot about this, this idea of narcissism and the people who obtain it, and you know, the interesting thing about it is that sometimes Like obtain the obtain like authority in the church, you mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the authority in the church, because they're you know, they're usually likable people and they come in pretty humbly, but it's not so much that it then becomes the comments of other people, right? So if you don't have your own identity, I guess in a sense, so we talk about it and maybe young adulthood so 20 to 27 years, kind of still building natural identity, and a lot of these pastors or these people who are growing up in the church, you know, a lot of people put hopes on them, say, oh, you're going to be so great, you're going to be used by God. So that starts to fill their mind, creating their identity. So then they live up to that standard to try to meet it. Oh, here's what's expected of me and here's what I need to, you know, meet in order to fulfill the desires that other people have for me. Maybe this is what God's calling me to do. Maybe this is what God's calling me to do, maybe this is what I'm supposed to aspire to, right, so they start to believe.
Speaker 1:I guess, if we could say, believe the hype that others are building in them, even though it's well-intentioned, like we want to see other people do good. But I think there's a. I wanna say it's in Timothy, where it's just something about not raising up those who are either new in the faith, but I don't know if it also refers to younger men, because I mean most of them are pretty young, but newer in the faith, and I think sometimes we see people who have great capabilities, great skills, are able to communicate well, which is what we see a lot, and they build them up really young.
Speaker 1:So the only option really that they have is to live up to the hype, right, yeah, so I think that's what I've seen. A lot is that there's these expectations placed on young men who are capable, very good at communicating, and they now just try to live up to the hype that others have for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting point because there's a verse in Proverbs I'm I'm drawing on the uh, the um actual verse right now, but basically it says you know, uh, fire is for gold, or as fire tests, improves gold. So a man is tested by what others say about him or by by his praise. You know, fire is going to test the worthiness or the authenticity of the purity of the metal. And when a man starts receiving praise from people for his virtue and character and other things like that, there's sort of this irony there where it actually will draw out the impurities from that person yeah, and it's even harder for those when they're younger too.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I think there's it's that identity stage, um, especially nowadays, where people don't have a good sense of identity even leading into their their 30s. Yeah, there's a lot of people in that. So if you start building up their identity from 20 to 30 day, hey, you're supposed to do this and you're supposed to do that, I mean it makes sense from a you know, psychological perspective why they would want to meet that Usually if they're 30, 40, have a more sense of self, you're more established, you may have a family, whatever the case is. So there's more grounding there. But those younger ages, you know, we really need to be careful, I think, with what we share and expect of our young guys who are desiring leadership or, you know, pursuing ministry in a sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that leads me to. There's a significant warning in the New Testament and it's in 2 Timothy, where Paul warns Timothy that you know, in the last days people are going to get deceived, they're going to keep to themselves teachers having itching ears and the minority. He tells Timothy be faithful, you, as a minister, be faithful and preach the gospel. So faithfulness, right there for preachers or aspiring ministers who are listening. So faithfulness, right there for preachers or aspiring ministers who are listening, your approval by God and your stamp of your authenticity as a minister in the church or your what am I trying to say? Your proof of ministry. Let's say is not in the numbers.
Speaker 2:You don't prove that God is with you by how many people are in your church. That's good Because it's faithfulness. The test of your ministry is faithfulness. So Paul tells Timothy now Paul's about to be executed. He tells Timothy be faithful and preach the gospel. And church tradition tells us that Timothy was later martyred. He's in Ephesus when he receives this letter and he's in charge of the church in Ephesus and he's later martyred in Ephesus. I forget how he's martyred, but yeah.
Speaker 2:But Paul says hey, like in the latter days, people are going to heap to themselves these kind of teachers. There's going to be a lot of them. So the true, faithful preachers are going to be in the minority and that shouldn't surprise us in any day and age. But there's also a warning where Paul says hey, people and he's talking about believers here he says they're going to give themselves over to the doctrines of demons. This is in 1 Timothy 4. To the doctrines of demons this is in first timothy four. So this is a little bit earlier in his ministry. But he warns timothy that that this the holy spirit is, you know, tells him this, but that people, that is, some, will devote themselves to the doctrines of demons, the teaching.
Speaker 2:Remember that doctrine or you know, orthodoxy, heterodoxy, they're going to give themselves over to the doctrines of demons and that those people are going to like. They're going to go on deceiving and being being deceived. That's so. That's a characteristic of false teachers, right there, is that they they love money. That's another characteristic that Paul gives to Timothy's like. That's another fruit that you see of false teachers. They do it for money, they love money, they love that kind of fame and uh clout that it gives them. But he says they go on, they go on deceiving and being deceived. Who like? So we know who they're deceiving, but but who's deceiving them? That's a really, if you connect all these dots of that false teaching is connected to the doctrines of demons and that false teachers themselves are deceit, it's really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So let me give you some things that might help in identifying false teaching. I call this like root and fruit. There's kind of two main ways to look at false teaching identifying it. Okay, there's kind of two main ways to look at false teaching, identifying it. The root would be like does their teaching call into question those fundamental doctrines of the faith? Okay, do they propose that? Oh, I have a new revelation. You know, like that's either equal to or above the Bible, or you know, jesus is just a created being. He's not fully God, or something like that. Or like Jesus has come again and I'm Jesus, something like that.
Speaker 2:Like a lot of cults, is this person now? This is not a telltale sign, but are they a new like, as you mentioned? Are they a new minister of some sort? And they're rising very, very quickly in their ministry? They're getting lots and lots of accolades and amassing a following for themselves, maybe on social media or elsewhere. And does this person seem to distort the gospel in some way, in a serious way? It's not like they misunderstand an aspect, like a some sort of peripheral aspect, but they're they are distorting the gospel in some way. Uh, so if you have those three in combination, like that's a pretty big identifying. Like what the root, the root of that person is corrupt in some way, um, or like maybe they're not a new Christian but maybe they just don't really have a clear testimony, something like that. The fruit would be something like this Does their lifestyle appear like a Christian should appear, or do they show like a fixation on worldly things, carnal things?
Speaker 2:Uh, maybe an example that would be do they show a preoccupation with worldly pursuits and pleasures, sensuality versus sanctification? Like? Are they telling their congregation, are they, are they trying to encourage quote-unquote, encourage their congregation through, or motivate their congregation through, material means, material wealth, material prosperity, or are they trying to motivate their congregation through holiness and endurance and perseverance and faithfulness, like we just mentioned? So that would be a good sign to look for is how are they motivating their congregation? To look for is how are they motivating their congregation? And similar to that would be does their teaching encourage or condone behavior that Christians have believed to be sin for thousands of years? Do they joke about that behavior from the pulpit, Like, do they show like this callous disregard for modesty and do they just joke about sensual things, sexual things or whatever from the pulpit, sort of like shock value kind of stuff. Now it could be a carnal christian that's doing this and they're disqualifying themselves from the ministry by doing it's very, very serious. Uh, because you have to answer for the lord. One day james says not many of you should be teachers, brethren, because you have to give a an account of what you say and I wouldn't want to stand before the lord and the lord says to me um, why did you lead my people into sexual immorality, like that would be a that'd be a hard question to answer you know, yeah uh.
Speaker 2:So that would be things that I would look for is, um, does their teaching condone sex? Uh uh uh fleshly kind of things like sexual immorality or just sensuality in some way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you know what's interesting about all that, tim? All great, great indicators and what things that we should be looking for. But what all of those things that you mentioned, there's one element, I mean I'm sure there's many more, but one that that definitely stands out to me is the emotional attachment to it, that there's emotions involved like why would someone change the message in addressing sexual immorality? And the idea behind it is I'm going to make people feel bad, or if it's something else about believing a certain type of doctrine, well, this, this kind of, separates us from these other people over here. Are they going to feel like we don't want them to be around us, or that we're exclusive?
Speaker 1:And there is exclusivity there. Right, there is a distinction between Christians and non-Christians and the things that they believe and the ways in which they should behave. But there is this group or large mass of Christians who focus on the emotional aspect of it so much that they're willing to compromise what they believe and do things that they shouldn't in order to fit in or to be more accepting of others. Do you think that that's a big part of the false teaching aspect?
Speaker 2:Are you talking about believers who have this desire to be part of something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it could be either the teacher, the pastor or even just believers in general. Because you know, usually what you'll find is that the Christians who believe this go to a church where a pastor teaches that aspect of, oh, we need to be accepting and we need to be this, but it's accepting even immoral behavior.
Speaker 2:it's teaching bad, bad doctrines or or teaching um but the experience, the worship experience, is good, maybe what you're getting exactly, so we want to make you like the way they feel when they go there we don't want to make you feel bad.
Speaker 2:So two things right we want to make you feel good and we don't want to make you feel bad yeah, yeah, well, I mean, well, I mean, like I would say, just put that, juxtapose that right next to what Paul tells Timothy about. In the latter days, people will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. You know that, like the teachers that will tickle their ears and tell them what they want to hear. So if you have a preacher that wants to make you feel a certain way rather than wanting to communicate the truth to you in a loving way, then then I'd say that's a warning.
Speaker 2:Now some people just some preachers want to communicate the truth and they don't care about your feelings at all, and it's like you're supposed to be a minister of grace and reconciliation. So if you got preachers who are arrogant and doing that like they're just mean, they're just mean people, you know. Yeah, so I would say you know, especially with young people, that's very easy. Like they get caught up in the worship experience. Quote unquote worship experience and a preacher that puts on a good show, but it's a lot of light or a lot of heat, not a whole lot of light. You know what I'm saying? That's good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I get that from my homiletics professor. Dr Kevin King'd say you gotta have, you have light and heat yeah passion, and passion and truth. But if you just have all heat, no light, it's just.
Speaker 1:It's just a show yeah, and you know and I think that a question comes up from that too, tim is uh, you know who are also the people who are not, who are being deceived and are not able to identify false teaching? And I think a big part of it is that people, Christians today, we don't read scripture, we don't know scripture, so the only exposure that people have to scripture is that is that Sunday morning, and I'm reminded of uh in Acts 17, 11, where we talk about or we see that you know what made the Jews more separate at this time? It says that they were more noble than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. So they were studying scripture to identify and to see. Is what you're teaching us true?
Speaker 1:So I'm saying that today there's a huge lack in that, which is why they're not able to identify false teaching yeah, you're talking about berea the berea sorry sorry to talk over you um, yeah, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's get back to something you asked a little bit ago and that was about exegeting the text versus something else, what we would call eisegesis. So there's kind of two main ways of teaching the text, and this is for believers who don't always recognize when someone's doing this inappropriately. So there's exegesis means from the text, as in, you're drawing out from the text the meaning of the text, the meaning of God's word, to teach it. So you're trying to draw out the true meaning of the text and give it to the congregation. That's exegesis. Think like exit.
Speaker 2:So eisegesis means that you're reading into the text, like you're reading into the text the message I want to communicate, like you're reading into the text what I, the message I want to communicate. Maybe a good way to say that is like I isolate a verse. So I said, jesus, I isolate a verse and I'm proof texting. I just take that verse and I make it say what I want it to say, okay, or I make it prove some point that I'm trying to make, and so I take that verse out of its context. I'm not trying to get the real meaning of that verse which we would get from the surrounding verses and paragraphs and chapters exactly yeah, so this is not like tim.
Speaker 2:Have you conquered your latest goliaths type of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you would would say what is going on in the story of David and Goliath that we need to know, and it's not that I need to go out and slay my giants, Because I'll tell you there are no more giants, at least in the physical form.
Speaker 2:And I'll just leave it at that until we get to our other weird topics that we're going to discuss later. But yeah, so exegesis is taking, like drawing from the text, the meaning of God's word. Eisegesis is reading into it. And a lot of false teachers will do eisegesis. They'll start with some story. They want to tell some point they want to make, and usually it's a really shallow point. And now it's not just false teachers that do this, it's bad teachers that do this. It's bad teachers that do this too. So let's distinguish between false teaching and bad teaching.
Speaker 2:But this kind of inappropriate use of the scriptures means that you're reading into the passage what some point that you already know you want to make. Okay, you're not. You haven't studied that passage to determine what is the meaning of that passage and what is it communicating. So a good book that I would recommend before we get to the end, would be Grasping God's Word, which is a DeVault and Hayes. It's a really famous book.
Speaker 2:If you spend any time in biblical studies or just any sort of divinity school or anything like that, it's a pretty common hermeneutics textbook and it's a really popular one. It's accessible to the average person in church that can read it and understand. Oh, this is how you interpret God's word Really easy method to follow and it's something that could guard a lot of people from preachers who might abuse the text for their own purposes. Because the danger is like if you, if a congregation, doesn't recognize that scripture is being taken out of context, a false teacher, a truly nefarious false teacher, can do a lot of damage and can lead you, can lead you into error and all kinds of things. Yeah, yeah. Really bad stuff, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we want to make sure that we're doing exegesis and remember, for those of you who are, who are listening, we made a point about this earlier, just the the way, and that's why I was asking, tim, if it is it intent, an intentional way of teaching. And I I do think that there is some intention.
Speaker 1:There is something about sparking an emotional response yeah, so that you are less aware of what's actually being taught, because if it's making you feel good, you're not going to question it, right? Typically we don't question. Maybe we reflect on it afterwards and we say, oh, that probably wasn't wise or oh, I should have said this or I should have said that. But in the moment, if you're on that high of whatever positive emotion, it is that you're feeling like you're not thinking critically at that point, right. So that's why there is some intention.
Speaker 1:The worship experience I think we talked about that last time as well, tim, where we said you know, the language around church is this worship experience. You know, and it's focused on this positive emotions. You know, and, and it's focused on this positive emotions and um, to add also to the um eyes of jesus, there's this new emphasis not not so new, but this aspect of uology, right, the study of you. So everything that the pastor or the preacher teaches is about how you can use this principle to transform yourself into this brand new person, a more improved you. Right, it's all about you. So the study of you has now become the theme for, you know, for these more popular churches.
Speaker 2:You know that we hear about yeah, and a common way you see that show up in biblical interpretation is reading into passages, reading yourself into the passage. Into the passage. A very famous one years ago was a guy on a megachurch that won't be named who talked about like you're David and you got to slay your Goliaths and you're always. These kinds of guys will encourage the congregation to read themselves into the passage and that's not how we're supposed to do this. Now, if there's like a letter of the New Testament where Paul's talking to a church and he's telling this church here's how to live a godly life, well, first let's understand that in its historic context. What was that church dealing with? But that's easier to extrapolate out to what we might do as Christians. But the further back you get into like Old Testament stories, we have to be really careful not to read ourselves into those passages, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And so but false teachers tend to do that, as you say, because they want people to have that nice feeling with inside of them and so that they want to focus on you and your journey and your spiritual, what we call actualization. You know you're, you're becoming of who you are. It's like changing the word of god into like a therapy session exactly, in a way, motivational speech, yeah, the apex of the message.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very, very, um, very interesting to see that.
Speaker 2:And it's not to say that scripture shouldn't be encouraging it should. You know your sermons should, if you're someone listening to this who is a true minister, a true preacher, like your sermons should uplift the congregation. It should encourage them to holiness. It should encourage them to holiness. It should encourage them to persevere in their faith. It should encourage them to walk in joy and peace and confidence in the lord. But those things have to be hemmed in by what they mean in the scriptures yeah, what does?
Speaker 2:it mean to to do those things biblically in the scriptures. Yeah, okay, so can I give you some? Maybe some uh tickers or check boxes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, false teachers. So I'm going to.
Speaker 2:This is like a quick list I'll run through. And it's not to say that anyone who checks these boxes off is a false teacher, but the more boxes that they check, the more likely it is that they are some sort of false teacher in the church. Now, this isn't like a card to go out and like go find the false teachers.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:These are just things that just to look out for A big red flag right away would be refusing correction from people who know the scriptures. Okay, if they were. If they're refusing correction like biblical correction, that would be a big red flag.
Speaker 1:And a quick question with that one how would the listener be able to know that, like, how would they be able to hear about that or see that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that if so, it's going to depend a lot on the situation. If it's a pastor and the elders of the church are saying, hey, this is not correct, like, this is not true teaching, this is inappropriate teaching, you should not be talking, and and that person doubles down and they won't submit to authority, that would be an example. Or if it's maybe not a person, maybe not someone that's like a minister, but maybe they're just in the congregation, maybe they're a deacon, maybe they're just a Sunday school teacher or something like that, and they introduce some strange teaching and the leaders of the church say this is not biblical, this is not where our church stands on this. This is, this is the here's the biblical reasons why we say this is wrong and you should not no longer teach this in the church, and that person refuses to submit to that kind of authority. Um, that's a big, that's a big sign, because they one, they lack humility, uh, but two, they're, they're, they're sowing division. At that point, that would be, that would be another one that I would put on the list sowing division in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another one would be using ambiguous or confusing language in their sermons. So a lot of times these guys will equivocate, they'll change the meaning of a word, they'll use two or three meanings of a word in the same sentence or the same thought paragraph as they're speaking, and it makes for some like good one-liners and zingers. But uh, it after it oftentimes becomes very confusing and it can easily confuse people. I don't have an example to give you right now, but the, the use of ambiguous or confusing language. No, I'm not. We're not talking like big theological terms. We're talking like, um, just speaking in a way that it could mean this, it could mean that and it's kind of up to the hearer. Yeah, very subjective. Yeah, strong appeals to emotion. That would be another one, as you mentioned.
Speaker 2:I mentioned before joking about sensuality or sexuality from the pulpit. I once heard, um, a person uh, I won't, I won't even call her a pastor, but you know, from the stage, her and her husband joke about pornography. Now, it wasn't live. This is on, this is on youtube, you can go find it, you know. But yeah, they joked about pornography from the stage and it was like, like, if you're, if you're having trouble in your sex life, go married couples, go watch some pornography. Yeah, it was like, even if they were being satirical. I just can't think of a minister that would say that. You know that isn't carnally minded. At the very least you know like why would you ever joke about that from the pulpit?
Speaker 2:Another one would be denial oh, I just mentioned this denial of church authority, particularly when they're confronted by church leaders, secretive or elusive behavior, like they don't want, they don't, they don't, they're not, they're afraid to kind of go public with what they're saying, like they want to remain, like maybe just in their Sunday school or just in their little small group and they don't want it to get out what they're teaching. That would that's a telltale sign demeaning or cursing language toward believers and particularly people who criticize them. This could be from a minister or or anyone, but someone who they they know they're being criticized. They know they know they're being criticized. They know they're getting, they're receiving biblical criticism, like just legitimate pushback about their teachings, and they begin to use demeaning language or cursing language.
Speaker 2:I've heard, I've heard some preachers, you know, on video, just literally cursing not cursing not curse, not curse words, but like pronouncing curses yeah on their critics and that is that is, uh, that is something that no minister would ever, should ever do, at least. You know, that's a I don't know. We know of, we know of the, the type of people who do curse like, who do pronounce curses on people, and it's not, it's not the ministers of god, you know. I would say another one would be associating themselves with the authority of the apostles of the early church yeah, yeah or putting their words, the authority of their words, on the authority of the apostles.
Speaker 2:appeals to their own authority or position in the church as a way of shutting down criticism, so saying, hey, I'm the pastor, I'm the man of God. God has given me this authority. You need to listen to me. Appeals to results-based ministry as evidence of God's anointing on their ministry. So again, contrast this with what Paul says to Timothy about being faithful. That's the marker of your ministry.
Speaker 2:These guys will often point to their worldly success as God's blessing on their ministry and if you know your New Testament, you know that is no evidence. In no way is that evidence that God is using you Just because you can amass a crowd. Every charismatic cult leader can amass a crowd. Jim Jones convinced over 900 people to go down to South America and commit suicide with him. So the fact that someone can amass a crowd and a following is no evidence that they are of God. That's true. Yeah, here's another one a preoccupation with money, particularly the donations of their congregants. So continually bringing it up that their congregants need to give money to them or something like that. You need to. We need to make this ministry work. Folks get on the phones like give us money.
Speaker 1:What if they need a jet, though, tim?
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe two yeah.
Speaker 1:Wherever they need to, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, you know Jesus owns a cattle on a thousand hills. Exactly why can't I own a private jet If they're braggarts, particularly about their personal success, as I just said that? But not even that. I mean. The book of Jude warns about false teachers who are so arrogant that they would mock spiritual beings. And he says, hey, even Michael the archangel didn't do that. Yeah, so these guys would be really, really arrogant. I think we actually see this sometimes with some of the charismatic preachers on TV, like they'll just spit and scream at Satan and the demons and all that stuff and it seems like it's all a show, but at the same time it's like man, you guys are arrogant, like that is not how we're to behave. You know toward, toward, uh, very powerful spiritual entities, right, even even the dark ones. You know, like we, we face them with the confidence of christ, but not like that um consolidate. So I'm going a long time here, do you want to?
Speaker 3:I got a couple more do you have maybe one or two more?
Speaker 2:okay, consolidation of power and their position as the head of the church, lack of transparency, specifically with the finances, and then, uh, isolating from their congregation, uh, and being being accessible to only a few privileged people. Yeah, those are all. Those are all signs, I think they're all good.
Speaker 1:I wonder if we should make like an actual checklist. No, I'm serious.
Speaker 2:A voter's guide.
Speaker 1:Okay, hey, here's something to be mindful of, because these are things that you could be. It doesn't have to be the church that you're going to, but maybe people that you listen to on social media, youtube, whatever the case is but something to be mindful of because I think that's usually where we get kind of caught up as well. Yeah, yeah of, because I think that's usually where we get kind of caught up as well.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd say you know that last one about isolating themselves from their congregation, like ministers are supposed to be people who love their congregants, right, yeah, and are willing I mean, jesus was willing to be associated with the lowly, and sometimes you can. You look at these guys who are the big mega church pastors, uh, and they're they're really focused on growing their brand and getting all the satellite churches all over the country. But you look at their social media, you look at anything of their public presence, they can't be seen with the randos in their congregation. I've heard some of them refer to their congregations as randos Random people, yeah, random, random people, yeah, wow, yeah, and that's a telltale sign that you care more about your platform than you do about the people in your congregation, even the people physically in your congregation, right, um, you know there was a one, there was one uh pastor who will not be named, who, um had a.
Speaker 2:I don't know if he still does this, but he had uh rings of uh, these like he would give rings of acts, like these rings that certain people would wear on their fingers and that would give them special access to him. Yeah, I'm not kidding you no, I'm just I'm trying to imagine this.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, my goodness, yeah, so only yeah.
Speaker 2:So there was this inner circle that could come to him for things. Yeah, that is so unbiblical. Now, I'm not saying that a pastor needs to be like a doormat and can't have boundaries in his life, because you got to take care of your family and all that and you got to have some rest and all that. But if you're not willing to go sit with your congregation, go talk to your people, be with them. But you're on social media all the time promoting your platform, like I.
Speaker 1:I don't think you are doing it the right, and by right I mean the biblical way no, I agree, man, I agree, yeah, yeah, as we kind of kind of wrap up here, tim, is there any final thoughts on this, this topic of false teachers, something that you maybe think a question the audience may have about it? I think I asked you just a couple of questions that came up for me as I was thinking about this intentionality and who are the congregants who are maybe tuning into this, these different types of messages? But, yeah, any final closing thoughts?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I would just recommend that book. We talked about that book grasping God's word. I would say that's a good book to get, just if you want to learn how to study the scriptures, but it also helps you to know just how to recognize when you hear bad teaching. Yeah, and I would say don't jump to conclusions. If someone gives a bad sermon, like, don't call him a heretic, okay, just seek seek out more information. Uh, it could be. It could just be someone who's inexperienced, doesn't have a whole lot of training and they need to get better. Uh, yeah, yeah no, don't, don't jump to conclusions.
Speaker 1:Don't jump to conclusions. Do your homework, study scripture, surround yourself with with other believers who also study scripture, and I think that provides at least a good foundation for identifying faults and just be aware of someone who's appealing to your emotions.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, very much, so Very much so yeah, all right, I think that wraps it up.
Speaker 1:I think that wraps it up, man. Good, good topic. Hopefully this was helpful to you guys and we will come back sometime later in the season, uh, with more on false teaching. But for now we will close it up and hopefully this was a blessing. We'll talk to you soon.
